New Order/BlackSquadron Role Play Rules

[Tenacity]

Ok, I just want to give my personal view on what the whole point of this is:

-nobody is trying to control anyone else, that may have been what wolf intended when this idea was proposed, but I dont think that's what it's about anymore.

-Rather than having black squadron or specific independents decide how roleplay will be done by -anyone- of the faction, the council will consist of numerous order players, and will be an RP-BASED group dedicated to making major decisions for the order. Not everyone has to follow those decisions as long as they're still following basic order RP.

Such an example: I have issues with the outcasts, they constantly smuggle cardamine through our space (guard system in particular), they're always running outcast destroyers through major/minor/100, and they attack our allies several times a day. Now, a while back, I made a post declaring 'war' on the outcasts (and yes, I was wrong in doing so), without backing from ANY other order members. That made me look like an idiot, to be honest, because I made a decision for quite a lot of order players without them even having a say in it, luckily nothing serious came from that.

With the council, however, I could bring those concerns to light and ask for a vote on what we should do - should we declare open hostilities against the outcasts, or should we keep ignoring them and considering them nuetral? How will this effect our diplomacy with other organizations around sirius, and how will it effect our own resources (meaning, if we have to divert half the fleet to deal with outcasts, will the nommies and BHG and liberty trample the other half).

That is the point, I think - to create a group, in-RP, which can make decisions in-RP. Now, if in that example we DID declare hostility or war against the outcasts as a whole, and numerous order players not on the council decide "we dont want to fight the outcasts, so we're going to keep considering them nuetral" - then that's fine, those players are still going by the ID rules and what is within canon RP for the order, while those of us on the council, in black squadron, and any independents who follow the council would probably find some way to include outcast hostility in their RP.

Dont think of it like some players trying to control everyone else, just think of it like a communal leadership for the order which makes decisions to influence RP - if you dont want to follow that RP you dont have to, but it does provide us an extra way of creating new events and relationships between the order and other factions while keeping a consensus requirement before we undertake such actions.

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[stewcool]

Could someone PM me like a one page summary of this whole thing (or less than a page)

This whole order thing needs a summary for me since I've been away and alot has changed in this 1 week!

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[Nevearo]

I gave you a quick and dirty summery stewcool

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As for the number of council members, I think that 6 is enough. I also think that these should be the most qualified people, not just nominated ones as that can cause bias.

As opposed to the bias that comes from people who are chosen by an individual?

Seriously, if I were to pick people to establish a rule, I would pick people that agreed with me the closest, so as to attempt to control the whole situation. The Bs| is already getting a bloc of 3 members of the same ideological background. The VAST majority of Independents play a entirely different way. Some of these ways aren't ways followed by the Bs|. I point to Rebel-Lion's ideas above. No Bs| would ever consider creating an event that has them attacking ships en route to Cambridge, although it seems like a really Orderly thing to do. This would be jumped on by most independents I have met so far. Some of them might even RP it. Should the council be made up of people who think Omicron Minor is the only place the Order should be, or should it contain people that aren't afraid to hold events in Liberty?

The answer is simple. It should be made up by the same ideological background of those who are participating in it. By including the desire for independents, you include the need for independents that don't think like the Bs|. You all have your bloc, so Order Independents should be free to have, if they wanted, the most extreme LOLWAT people on the council if they wanted (dear god please no). That right shouldn't be taken away. It is there to ensure that people can have a "stake" in the order and think it has a chance of representing them. Without that, My order character would not follow the council. With it, he will, even if Tenacity ends up with a seat on it (dear god please no).

The whole nomination process is my suggestion leading up to a forum vote, since no one else has suggested a better way of ensuring the independents are chosen by the independent community. Now that I think about it though, that doesn't work very well... Anyone have any better idea on how to get a good and real vote of who should be on the independent side of the council?

[Baltar]

1) Council will be made up of 6 members. 3 From the Faction BlackSquadron, 3 Independents of their own choosing. Bs| reserves all 3 spots for the faction to be given to their 3 highest ranking members.

Thank you ... Indies have the right to their own 3 of our choosing.

The Indies get to choose themselves. Why would anyone choose an Indie that will vote Bs| for the sake of voting Bs|? The solution is simple. If Tenacity doesn't represent the Indies properly, don't pick him. I'd suggest picking cool, level-headed indies that aren't likely to let themselves get crushed by a Bs| voting block.

Yes ... Indies should pick their own.

Why does everyone continue to claim that I'm some kind of black squadron pet?

Don't think anybody has actually called you a Bs| pet here ... BUT ... I will say this. You DO hold rank given to you by Bs| and have not yet denounced that rank. You have carried your weight about and shoved it down others' throats. I have serious issues with someone carrying such high rank within a system-owning faction and them NOT being an actual faction member. You've chosen (admitted by yourself) to NOT be a member of Bs| because you did not want to go through the promotion process of a faction ... and to avoid having to work your way up the chain to gain your capship. And now ... here you are ... one of the top ranking members of Bs| and yet NOT a faction member. So yes ... you are part of Bs| and no longer an Indie. You're just a Bs| that does not bear the Bs| tag. You're the only person I know that has been able to attain such high rank and dictate to others what is appropriate role play and NOT be an actual faction member.

Having said all this ... Tenacity is no longer qualified IMHO to be considered for one of the 3 Indie positions on the council. At least not unless he denounces his rank within Bs| and humbles himself to be like any other Indie.

FYI ... my Indie Order character is Marcus Cromwell ... an Order research vessel.

[Tenacity]

Seriously, if I were to pick people to establish a rule, I would pick people that agreed with me the closest, so as to attempt to control the whole situation.

I wouldnt necessarily - I'd pick people with the most varied views and opinions as possible, to get as much of a perspective on a situation as possible.

if you're trying to solve a math problem, you dont want 10 english majors working on it, do you? =P

Personally I think we should go up to 9 council members, with 3-4 of them being from black squadron, and the rest being chose from various independents with different areas of expertise. I've already talked with the leader of this new order group, the 42|, and he's agreed to be one of the council members as long as I can get wolf to agree to it. Now, his entire group is fighter-based, and focuses on reconnaissance RP, which is vastly different than the Bs who represent the order guard, and the other independents who represent the majority of the order's forces (and many of whom are capship fliers).

Decisions are being made among everyone involved, I've even spoken with ryoken about the matter. My current problem is getting everyone on the same page as far as what the council is really meant to do =)

Should the council be made up of people who think Omicron Minor is the only place the Order should be, or should it contain people that aren't afraid to hold events in Liberty?

Both, you cant have a debate, and thus a decision, without having opposing ideas. I never said I think all order players should stick to omicron minor, I just dont like our capships going into new york, as I believe it's both OORP and used as an excuse to pvp whore - however I have no problem whatsoever with fighters/bombers going into new york as long as they keep in-RP - the 42| recon group is a good example of a group I support in undertaking operations into house territory.

You all have your bloc, so Order Independents should be free to have, if they wanted, the most extreme LOLWAT people on the council if they wanted

I'm sorry, but that isnt going to happen. People are being chosen for the council positions based on a few key factors:
1. Consistently following server rules
2. Displaying higher-than-average capability when it comes to in-game RP
3. Leadership over various order groups (Black squadron, the 42nd, stewcool's 122nd, etc.)
4. Types of roles RP'd, to get the greatest variety possible (we want both capship fliers and fighter pilots on the council, as well as people who RP militaristically or covertly - varied opinions is the goal here).

We are not, under any circumstances, going to pick someone for the council who has shown signs of pvp whoring or lack of willingness to RP in the past, and we're definitely not going to choose anyone who abuses our faction ID or ships for pvp purposes alone. We're also looking for leadership qualities, people who cant make a decision and stick to it are not going to be chosen, followers dont get leadership roles.

With it, he will, even if Tenacity ends up with a seat on it (dear god please no).

If you have a personal problem with me, then out with it, I'm tired of your constant referral to me as some sort of plague here when every goddamn thing I do is for the good of the affiliation and, in most cases, the server. I'm sorry if I dont approve of RP-less players, but simple fact of the matter is that they shouldnt be here if they arent going to at least attempt to stay in character, there are still pvp servers running this mod if people really want to play that way.

If you arent going to man up and tell me what your problem with me is, then quit bitching about it.

The whole nomination process is my suggestion leading up to a forum vote

This was my idea at first as well, then I realized "if such nominations and votes are to be made, they need to be made by THE ORDER'S players, not by the rest of the community who arent effected. The problem here is that you cant restrict voting to specific players on the server (meaning order players), and there are too many people here with personal biases against specific players that would throw in their vote just to screw the whole system up. As the others simply put it: it would become a popularity contest, not an accurate election.

That's why this is being handled in private. I will probably be sending out PM's to most order players soon asking for their opinions on who should be on the council, you'll be included remora - put in your nominations, but this will not be held publicly.

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[Tenacity]

Don't think anybody has actually called you a Bs| pet here ... BUT ... I will say this. You DO hold rank given to you by Bs| and have not yet denounced that rank. You have carried your weight about and shoved it down others' throats. I have serious issues with someone carrying such high rank within a system-owning faction and them NOT being an actual faction member. You've chosen (admitted by yourself) to NOT be a member of Bs| because you did not want to go through the promotion process of a faction ... and to avoid having to work your way up the chain to gain your capship. And now ... here you are ... one of the top ranking members of Bs| and yet NOT a faction member. So yes ... you are part of Bs| and no longer an Indie. You're just a Bs| that does not bear the Bs| tag. You're the only person I know that has been able to attain such high rank and dictate to others what is appropriate role play and NOT be an actual faction member.

I gained respect with the players I deal with, I'm sorry if others cannot do the same but that is their own problem.

I hold no power whatsoever within black squadron, or over any of it's members. I hold no power over independent players except with those that follow me willingly.

Now, if you took the time to gain their respect and trust (and by they i mean BOTH black squadron and the order independents), you'd be in the same position I am. It's personal effort that decides who follows you here, not self appointed rank. Any idiot on the server can call himself an admiral or general, few actually earn trust to the point of other players accepting that rank.

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[Niro]

delete

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[Baltar]

People are being chosen for the council positions based on a few key factors:
1. Consistently following server rules
2. Displaying higher-than-average capability when it comes to in-game RP
3. Leadership over various order groups (Black squadron, the 42nd, stewcool's 122nd, etc.)
4. Types of roles RP'd, to get the greatest variety possible (we want both capship fliers and fighter pilots on the council, as well as people who RP militaristically or covertly - varied opinions is the goal here).

True ... but you don't necessarily meet all these requirements. Many of these are subjective and just because you have friends within the Bs| doesn't mean you meet the requirements.

I gained respect with the players I deal with, I'm sorry if others cannot do the same but that is their own problem.

I hold no power whatsoever within black squadron, or over any of it's members. I hold no power over independent players except with those that follow me willingly.

Now, if you took the time to gain their respect and trust (and by they i mean BOTH black squadron and the order independents), you'd be in the same position I am. It's personal effort that decides who follows you here, not self appointed rank. Any idiot on the server can call himself an admiral or general, few actually earn trust to the point of other players accepting that rank.

You do have a superiority complex, Tenacity. You may have gained respect with your buddies in the Bs| and elsewhere ... but that doesn't mean you have respect of the community as a whole. Many find you a bit full of yourself. While you may have role play to heart and do a good job with it ... that doesn't gain you respect when you cut others down for their role play. You are not the king of role play and don't go thinking you are. Just because others don't have respect and trust from your Bs| buddies and other of your buddies doesn't mean that we are void of respect and trust in the community.

And yes you do hold power within Bs| ... you were the Indie character ordering the Bs| ensign about when I was attacked by you and your buddies. So don't give me this "I'm an innocent Indie" routine. You told me that day that you hold a high rank within Bs|.

As for me ... I have one Order character ... and don't fly him that often. I spend more time a long way from Order space ... so for me to "gain respect" of Bs| and such ... I guess I'd actually have to be in Order space right?

You were appointed one of the admiralty by Bs| ... so yes ... you've gained their trust and respect. But you are still one of their senior leaders ... and NOT an official member of the faction. So my objection still stands. If you become one of the 6 on the council ... you will be occupying one of the 3 Bs| positions on the council. Otherwise ... denounce your position of leadership within Bs|.

EDIT: Bs| appointed you to the position of leadership ... not the Indies ... so don't try to say you earned the position from the Indie side of the house.

[n00bl3t]

I will testify that Tenacity is certainly not a Black Squadron pet. He isn't the kind of person I think would be a good person for the independent side of the council, but he is certainly not a Bs| pet.

:lol:

I will say this...
I am not for the council, nor am i against it. I will make my decision's in game,according to the situation. If the other order char's on take my side at the time? cool. If they do not? i am also fine with that. This is a game,and all see RP in there own way,and will react how they feel apropriate at the time. You cannot predict all situation's,and every encounter is different.
I will not be voting for any council,and will probly not follow 1.
See you all in game, and happy holiday's.

/signed.

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[Nevearo]

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I'm sorry, but that isnt going to happen. People are being chosen for the council positions based on a few key factors:
...

1) They are CHOSEN BY THE INDEPENDANTS OF THE COMMUNITY!

You have no place on the council. Stop acting as if you do. You MIGHT get one if you convince the Bs| to take you into their group, or if you can convince the Independants to vote for you. From what I see here, I very highly doubt that.

If you have a personal problem with me, then out with it, I'm tired of your constant referral to me as some sort of plague here when every goddamn thing I do is for the good of the affiliation

Such as calling for 2 Capital ships to handle a keeper while it is 1k away from you? If I hadn't shown up and if it hadn't been so interested in watching the fight, it WOULD have gotten away. Keeper Aja is a very good pilot. I went through about 35 Cruise disruptor before the capital ship arrived. It still wasn't able to get a good shot on him. All this because an LSF killed an order member? Yea, I think YOUR RP is good. Sit on top of a Freeport waiting for him to undock, calling in as much order as you can to join you, and following him. It's nice that you respected the 5k around the Freeport, but you violated the heck out of the spirit of the Freeport, and didn't even blink.
And then, after the fight, You spent time and effort telling me how you were a member of the council, appointed by Wolfpack. It is spelled out clearly here that the only members of the council chosen right now are Bs| members, yet you are telling me your actions of ignoring the Keeper, who might have gotten away and infected others, to mob a Liberty Vessel, was sanctioned RP by the council? If that isn't LOLWAT, I don't know what is. In my opinion, your RP is as bad as the capships passing through Alaska.
So, my problem with you is this:
1) Your RP is crap.
2) You are attempting the reality of the Power Grubbing I had a problem with wolfpack having in theory.
Good enough of a personal problem?

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If you arent going to man up and tell me what your problem with me is, then quit bitching about it.
This was my idea at first as well, then I realized "if such nominations and votes are to be made, they need to be made by THE ORDER'S players, not by the rest of the community who arent effected. The problem here is that you cant restrict voting to specific players on the server (meaning order players), and there are too many people here with personal biases against specific players that would throw in their vote just to screw the whole system up. As the others simply put it: it would become a popularity contest, not an accurate election.

You have a better system of voting? Oh right, you are all about whatever gets you into power. No thanks. The only way the council has my backing is if the Independants are chosen by the community. *Looking*
Nope, not a single vote outside of the Bs| from an order player in favor of you. Not even one from a non-order player. Fancy that.

That's why this is being handled in private. I will probably be sending out PM's to most order players soon asking for their opinions on who should be on the council, you'll be included remora - put in your nominations, but this will not be held publicly.

Not all order players put their characters up in the RP section. I don't. If someone is interested in learning the Background of Logan Astria, they will have to talk to Logan Astria. This is why it needs to be public, because it affects more than the people you will "PM.", and noone can accuse of back door dealing going on with the Bs|. I certainly would accuse you of just that if all of the sudden you were elected to lead the council without any kind of evidence the Independent community wanted it.