Atmospheric Fighter Roleplay question

[Fletcher]

Something pinged in my head just now, atmospheric fighters and bombers. In Sirius, or even any large populated planet, or even military planet, would they have a defensive aircraft garrison?

If yes, would they be the usual fighter said Faction employs? E.g. Would Liberty have a garrison of Liberators on hand in the atmosphere?

To me, I'd probably say yes and no since there are pros and cons on both sides. Lets look at them both.

Pros to having normal House fighters in atmosphere
Its cheaper to build a lot of the same ship than many different types due to manufacturing reasons;
Easier to train pilots on generic fighters;
Easier for logistics.

Cons
Space faring ships tend to be less aerodynamic, making them less combat efficient as atmospheric fighter counter parts;
Easy as hell for heat seeking missile technology, fission trail in atmosphere, then again in space too
Difficult to deploy between space and atmosphere in high traffic situations
Impossible for assault missions due to no re-entry capabilities (supposedly)


Let us now look at the atmospheric fighter side of things. These would be the super advanced jets that we have today, or even equipped with fission drives. These are built to fly and vanguard planets on home turf.

Pros to having purpose built atmosphere fighters
Much better anti-air capabilities due to better aerodynamics, and systems tuned to specific atmospheric conditions;
Harder for enemies to have ballistics damage them due to agility;
Possibly easier to launch due to possibly catapult or 'magnetic acceleration' launch technology;
Higher speeds, blocky space ships would produce too much drag;
Specialized armaments;
Possibly able to launch missiles into orbit to engage at safe perimeter. The atmosphere could act as a shield;
Possible to launch through re-entry drop pods to attempt to gain air-superiority in hostile territories.
Harder to detect, likely due to stealth materials. (Think F-22 Raptor or F-117)

Cons
Expensive to maintain, who gets attacked planet side by hostile forces? Save Kusari and Bretonia (possibly).
No space faring ability;
Lower armor and shield ability, aerodynamics would not be able to compensate a shield or large fission drive;
If aircraft is VTOL based, they have too low speed in general compared to scram jet or fission types;
Specialized training required.


Now then, what are your thoughts on atmospheric fighters?

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[Ironwatsas]

Well, seeing as spacecraft seem to have some sort of Anti-gravity capability and aerospace manuvering capacity, I would think they would have little problem flying about inside a planetary atmosphere. However, seeing as we clearly don't have gravity manipulation on the level of, say, the Grays, ships would probably still have limited manuverability based on atmospheric resistance, planetary gravity, ship mass, etc.

Seeing as many sirius spacecraft are built as such, with no apparent flight surfaces or aerodynamic nature (case in point, CSV, bloodhound, crusader, etc). Even if ships do have wings, I doubt they'd be good at generating lift based on their size, thickness, shape, and lack of flaps or aelorons (know I spelled that wrong).

I would think that purpose built atmospheric aircraft, both for military and civilian use would be present and common. We know there are 'flying car' type vehicles based on NPC rumors and random crap flying in the background on many planets. Some would presumably use conventional wings to generate lift, while others would use similar anti-G/repulsor/maglev/whatever technology to ships. Though, when dealing with aircraft manuvering in built-up environments like cities, many would have VTOL capability through some means.

As for RPing military atmospheric aircraft, I have done so with the Consortium (which maintains a large planetary combat force) in which we possess a gamut of various flying machines ranging from conventional airplanes, combat helicopters, vehicles which use anti-gravity and thrust vectoring, or zepplin/dirigable type vehicles. They range on role from Air Superiority, Close air support, tankers, troop dropships, etc. In our case, nearly all of these vehicles are robotic or remotely controlled.

I would think that the houses would possess comprable vehicles, and in superior numbers as part of their general planetary combat forces. Space vehicles are built to function in space, not a dense planetary atmosphere. Even if they are able to fly in atmosphere, their shield systems and weapons may not be able to compensate properly for the presance of atmosphere, G-forces, etc.

Having diffrent types of aircraft with diffrent means of purpolsion is likely nessiscary, as we're dealing with diffrent planets, with diffrent atmospheric densities and compositions, gravity, weather, and other conditions. Certian types of aircraft would not be able to function in certian climate types. Lower density of air or higher tempretures could cause problems with rotory winged or turbojet powered aircraft, while denser air or higher gravity would probably magnify the effects of drag or choke up air intakes. So that too must be taken into account.

This does however offer an excuse for possessing lots of diffrent options for describing various bits of hardware, with diffrent technologies implemented. There's no one solution for solving the problem of air superiority, across all the planets we would have to deal with.

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All that begins must end.

[Xing]

I think the devastating effect Valkyrie has on ground according to SP mission on Prague answers the question. they use spaceship in atmosphere and they are very effective.

I'd love to see atmosphere battle in major planets... hehe

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[Agmen of Eladesor]

Anyone remember Project Thor?

I realize that all of the systems have to have something or other in place, whether it's an atmospheric fighter, ground attack vehicles, or whatever. Nothing personal, but I think that there are plenty of flight simulators and combat flight simulators out there for that part of things. It when you deal with the complex issues raised by the trading around the houses and the interactions between the players and factions and all the politics that are involved here that make Discovery and Freelancer, while not unique, the best overal simulator around.

Anyway, I think that the only thing atmospheric craft would do in the game as it is, would be to add the service craft that bring the cargos up and down from mooring rings. There's no real need for any military craft around at all - or really for us to be flying them. (Again, see above paragraph about flight simulators.)

I'm quite curious to see if anyone has ever actually said somewhere in our role play just exactly why KEW's aren't used? Is there an 'Eridani Edict' in effect? (Not an attempt to hijack the thread - I'm just curious)

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Errant.Venture]

well i see the point of atmospheric fighters, and i would love to see a map created for just that...however, and i fully expect to be criticized for this, stealing from star wars rogue squadron, space based fighters tend to stink in atmosphere, also giving to how atmosphere logically would be particular to planet, i.e. not every planet having the same gravity, other things may need to be considered....but overall, from an RP stand point, i think it would be logical to assume some planetary defense force exists

totally good analysis though, i think you pretty much covered all your bases

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[Fletcher]

I think the devastating effect Valkyrie has on ground according to SP mission on Prague answers the question. they use spaceship in atmosphere and they are very effective.

I'd love to see atmosphere battle in major planets... hehe

Prague? Or is it Sprague? I can't remember.

The Valkyries were devastating, but wasn't there also orbital shelling involved? Still, they were beasts nonetheless.

Can you imagine Rheinland and Liberty atmospheric vessels engaging on Houston in a surprise attack or something? Or even in Hamburg is it?

Top Gun anyone?

Or even Kusari fighters taking on Bretonian ones on Harris, or God forbid Leeds... Trent will have bricks in underwear with that.

Still, think Freelancer combat, just at a much higher speed.:ylove:

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"Oh chuffing blimey, another day, another person being whiney!"
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[Friday]

To be sure, atmospheric craft could also be fighting inside Gas Giants.

And the ultimate in atmospheric craft could also operate underwater - or in liquid atmospheres at several hundred times the pressure of a standard earth.

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[Errant.Venture]

well that does indeed bring to light many new avenues....atmospheric fighters though seem kinda...well old school, in comparison to tech in the game....i mean fighting in gas giants and such, but it seems like they might be outdated and more for nostalgia then practical application...but thats my random 2 cents

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[guitarguy]

I think no, not because it can't be done, but because warfare has changed. The goal of wars are no longer to completely destroy an enemy, that would be too expensive to be worth it. The goal is to destroy an enemy fleet or cause enough damage to the opponent to force them to agree to give up control of a system or whatever demands have been made. Orbital attacks/occupations would be too expensive and cause too many casualties, when you could either bombard the system or blockade it.

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[Xing]

This really depends on how zealous politicians are. If they think of them as righteous, they might order the "liberation" of this or that planet.

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