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... kur nubėgo? · 12-05-2009, 01:25 AM,

' Wrote:you can write it on a toilet paper, i asure you it'll go to right place

/singed

"zoner movement" ... (rofl) ... They are just intrested in credits. Neutrality is just for safe trading.

Well anyhow I hope to see some intresting rp with this fuzz going around.

Omega Pirates Guild

History of OPG | Antonio "Vilkas" Devivar

kuth · 12-05-2009, 02:13 AM,

' Wrote:The factions admitted to it.. And perhaps you should try responding politely, that post is quite offensive to him, and all he did was state his opinion on how he thought the factions were behaving. He isn't the only one thinking that way either..
Remind me when I get home to show you those vanilla rumors/infocards about the NFZ around Ames Research. You'll find you're wrong here.

Please provide a link to where we admitted it. I would love to see it. If you are referring to Lou asking that the Council be dissolved. Lou asked. Look up the definition of the word ask. Had the factions truly wanted to force themselves upon indies they could have taken the CoZ by force. Even they, the indies wouldn't have to stay in the CoZ and deal with it. Much like the factions choose to leave so they wouldn't have to deal with indies as much. Honestly, I could care less if it offended him. He was offensive in making a claim that has no base. Perhaps he should have been more polite.

Lurker

kuth · 12-05-2009, 02:26 AM,

I'd also like to point out to you Dab that what you are offering the Alliance in the form of this Security Committee is the very thing the Alliance offered the CoZ and almost all of the remaining members called it a power grab. The fact that you give yourself a seat on the Security Committee only backs the fact that you refuse to give up your seat of power.

Jinx didn't declare herself king of 11. She removed if from CoZ rule because simply put under your leadership the CoZ has made many enemies. You complain about what Jinx did but I don't see you complaining about what Beck did with 14? Why is that?

' Wrote:Zoner official factions - [TAZ], OSI-, (]c[) - are able to ask the admins to repfix a person to be hostile to Zoners, by the by.

Per recent events so does the Council of Zoners even though they are unofficial.

Quote:You're making legislation that is drastically slanted in your favor, then try to blame us because we reject the idea.. If you came up with a legitimate deal that is actually plausible from our standpoint, you'll have more luck.

The legislation you sent to us is the exact same legislation we sent you. You called it a power grab.

The Sec Comm works exactly as the Alliance Committee works yet you feel the need to add yet another sub group of Zoners and give yourself a seat upon it. Why not open that seat up to voting within the CoZ? Rather afraid you wouldn't get it would you? If the CoZ wants unity in the form of this Sec Com why don't they join the Alliance and have it via the AC? Why create another group? O that's right, most of them won't compromise at all. Even over a damn name.

Lurker

Dab · 12-05-2009, 05:47 AM,

' Wrote:Please provide a link to where we admitted it.

' Wrote:You are either in the ZA and not the COZ, or not in the ZA.

' Wrote:Thus we would appreciate independent Zoners to join the ZUI voluntarily by abandoning and finally dissolving the CoZ completely, because the introductiin of new political structures might require leave-taking from the past to reflect the changes by all Zoners consequently.

' Wrote:There for it is easiest to require that any interested parties not be part of the COZ.

' Wrote:I'd also like to point out to you Dab that what you are offering the Alliance in the form of this Security Committee is the very thing the Alliance offered the CoZ and almost all of the remaining members called it a power grab. The fact that you give yourself a seat on the Security Committee only backs the fact that you refuse to give up your seat of power.

First, care to find out where the Alliance ever offered that to the Council of Zoners? You'll find such an offer was -never- made. Even if it were, we'd not have accepted it because, unlike what you seem to think, the ZA was saying CoZ would enter as the new ZUI. Meaning CoZ as a whole would have one vote out of 4. The other 3 belonging to the factions. Here is an example of the problem that would cause; If CoZ were to have 50 people in it, and the 3 factions altogether were to have 25 people in them.. That's 50 people having 1 vote and 25 people having 3 votes. 75% of the population would only have 25% of the vote. 25% of the population would control 75% of the vote. That is an oligarchy.

The Security Committee is completely different from the Alliance Committee. Both in the structure and the duties it holds. To compare the two is ridiculous on account of their differences.

' Wrote:Jinx didn't declare herself king of 11. She removed if from CoZ rule because simply put under your leadership the CoZ has made many enemies. You complain about what Jinx did but I don't see you complaining about what Beck did with 14? Why is that?

Yes, she did declare herself, in essence, the king of Freeport 11, despite the fact that other players had Zoner characters based out of Freeport 11. Those Zoner players were never consulted, their opinions disregarded in the pursuit of Jinx getting what she wanted.

And you'll find I did have a serious talk with Beck on Skype. I even have the chat logs if you'd like to see them, I can PM them to you at any time. Why do you think he ended up making a new thread asking for the opinions of the residents of FP14? I don't complain or flame on the public forums, I deal with them in private.

' Wrote:Per recent events so does the Council of Zoners even though they are unofficial.

Note that the 'Zoner Alliance' is also unofficial but was granted a message dump, even though the three factions in it already have their own message dumps. Council of Zoners has been granted a message dump for years. Message Dumps are reserved for official factions. While unofficial, it has been granted some of the official rights due to the nature of its existence. The Zoner Alliance was granted these same privileges.

' Wrote:The legislation you sent to us is the exact same legislation we sent you. You called it a power grab.

First, you never sent legislation to us. In fact when this all started, I had to be forceful just to get a response from the ZA, who up till then hadn't even released any information with other Zoner players about what they were doing. And now take a look at the Alliance Committee and the Security Committee. You'll find they both have two very different structures, procedures, and duties. They are not the same at all.

' Wrote:The Sec Comm works exactly as the Alliance Committee works yet you feel the need to add yet another sub group of Zoners and give yourself a seat upon it. Why not open that seat up to voting within the CoZ? Rather afraid you wouldn't get it would you? If the CoZ wants unity in the form of this Sec Com why don't they join the Alliance and have it via the AC? Why create another group? O that's right, most of them won't compromise at all. Even over a damn name.

The name has nothing to do with it. They didn't want to join the Alliance because 1.) You proved yourselves untrustworthy and were contradicting yourselves when asked direct questions. 2.) You were actively trying to have the Council of Zoners disbanded, and forbidding anyone from participating in the Zoner Alliance unless they resigned from the Council of Zoners. That one right there was one of the biggest issues people had. 3.) You wanted to give CoZ one vote, regardless of the amount of people CoZ contained, rather than make the votes even based on population of members in each group. The Zoner Alliance, Alliance Committee, whichever you call it, was slanted vastly to the advantage of the factions. There were also several other issues that made people think twice about the ZA. If you check the threads about the ZA, you'll find those posts.

I modelled the Security Committee around the old SHIZL, which had the chairperson on it as a given seat and basically 'presided' over the SHIZL. I've taken away the 'leader' bit and only made the chairperson an equal member, rather than one above the others. I think you'll find I've reduced the power of the chairperson in this committee, compared to how it was in the SHIZL. I've also given set numbers so that the chairperson can't control the entire committee. Six of the seats are fully elected. Be the person being elected is from the Alliance, the Council, or from neither, they are able to be elected to those seats. That's as open as possible, and not slanted in advantage of anyone. The factions, even though I didn't like the idea, were granted free seats on this Committee. One seat per faction, one seat for the chairperson, one seat for the vice chairperson. Given that there are three factions, the factions outnumber the chairperson. Then you add in the 6 elected seats, and the Committee is as unbiased as it was possible to make it.

The biggest issue is that the Zoner factions have shown themselves to be rather selfish factions. In all the time I spent in the various other factions I played (101st/SOB/RoS, LPI, and BAF to name the largest), none of them were as selfish as the Zoner factions. They earned what they got, and they worked hard to get where they were. The Zoner factions however, seem more taken with the idea of demanding privileges at the expense of other Zoner players. They demanded respect, demanded privileges, such as putting the factions above the indies, even if the indies were the majority. I've also been told that the ZA would prefer the SC be Chairperson + faction leaders.. Cutting out any indies from the group completely.

I had my disagreements and issues with Malaclypse, but we also respected one another. And my respect for him was centered around the fact that he didn't ask to be given anything. He didn't say he was 'owed' anything. If he wanted something, he went out and did what was necessary to EARN what he got. And throughout his entire time as a Zoner player, even when leading the TAZ, he strove to make independent Zoner players just as included, just as equal as the faction players. That is something the current faction leaders need to understand. You get respect when you earn it, it isn't something you can demand from people.

Some people say I've done a 'bad' job of leading the Council of Zoners. Others say I've done a good one.. But I ask you to consider the present situation. Is it really my fault what has happened, or is it an effect of the factions pulling out of CoZ with no warning at all, then urging Zoners to dissolve the Council? I got the position of temporary chairman dropped in my lap out of the blue by Doc. First I had to deal with all the negotiations the factions left floating in the wind, like the treaties with Bretonia and Liberty, which were drafted, to the letter, by the leaders of two of the Zoner factions. Then I had to deal with the Zoner players wondering what the heck the factions left the Council for, as they were extremely vague when they left. Then in a matter of days, what happens? The Zoner factions make a story thread where their leader's characters are meeting in a secure room on Corinth (they emphasized the fact that they were very very focused on making sure no one had the room wired to hear what they were saying, that's one indication right there) and start discussing making a new government.. Then after that they just make a public announcement; Again, out of the blue.

Now when I confronted them asking why they didn't talk to anyone about what they were going to do, all I got was a "well, we were planning on telling you, but we wanted to make sure we had everything in order first, we didn't want to give you the idea only half-baked."

To which I ask; If it is 'baked' enough to make into a galaxy-wide public announcement, how is it not enough to at least contact some of the Zoner players outside of the factions for opinions/feedback before setting it in motion? You didn't even contact the chairperson of the Council of Zoners about it prior to your public announcement.

I may make decisions that aren't the most popular with people, but they get done what needs to be done, and with the current situation, and the actions the factions took, I had little choice but to make those decisions. Even then, I did everything possible to make sure those decisions were within the rights of the chairperson to do, and to allow everyone on the Council a chance to voice their opinions on it, and to say no to my decision and override me.

I'm sorry that I didn't get to start my 'reign' as chairman in as easy a political situation as Malaclypse's was, but I won't apologize for doing what I had to keep the Council alive. In every past election for chairperson, I have abstained from running for the position. I had other factions to deal with. My Kiretsu faction had just become official right before this whole situation began. Being chairperson was definitely not on my list of wishes. I was content to be just another Zoner with a single voice and an opinion I could throw around on issues. There is a single, very simple, reason I took the position of chairperson this time around. Because I wasn't about to stand by and watch the Council of Zoners be dissolved by three Zoner factions, two of which aren't even a year old, after the Council has existed for over three years successfully. It is the best democratic institution we can have as Zoners, that allows everyone to have an equal voice and makes sure decisions are made that reflect what the majority of people want. Those are the basic rights of every Zoner player, conformed to Zoner RP, and I'll be damned before I allow it to be replaced by a group of four people who have the arrogance to make everyone else's decision for them.

SigCorps · 12-05-2009, 06:30 AM,

As was discussed months ago on Skype the main issue you had with the factions leaving the COZ was that we did not talk it over with you first. You felt it was a slight against you just as you made chairman that all the factions left. You can use my words that you are either with the ZA or the COZ all you want...the ZA and the COZ had different ideas and agendas that conflicted! To allow someone to be in both what a major issue waiting to happen. Dab you went on your little rant and dissolved the SHIZL, which we allowed since it was to much of a pain to bother with. We decided to set up our own group, and offer those who wanted to join us. No one had to, as you can see no one did. So be it. We did not trash the COZ, you did a good enough job of that yourself. And then you offer up the SC...well first it was a declaration until one of the COZ members slammed on the breaks and said "we never voted on this" Then and only then did you turn your decree into a proposal.

You can call the ZA an oligarchy, dictatorship...what ever. Your just pissed the official factions left he COZ, and the fact we never included you in the discussions. Now you want the ZA to join the SC and here we are again...You versus the Factions. You can rant...rave...rage against the machine all you want, it will not get us to agree with you, or support you, or join you. You and your games, make this game no longer fun. I ask you all to set aside the egos. No offense Dab your is the size of a flippen Juggy. It was that Ego that cause the divide in the Zoners. Try not to finish trashing them.

Any how I'm out. You all have fun, be safe. Try and enjoy this awesome mod, peace. I'm going to go back to single player games.

Formerly Sam Nichols, creator of OSI

kuth · 12-05-2009, 06:58 AM,

Typical wall of text by Dab as an avoidance tactic.

@ Sam

Sad to see you go man. I hope life treats you well.

Lurker

n00bl3t · 12-05-2009, 07:32 AM,

Just to clarify, my previous post in this topic was not involved as an attack on Jinx. However, it definitely did seem that way, looking retrospectively. To be frank, if you analyse Jinx's actions, nothing done by him was wrong. However, the move he made did affect things. (This, however, is completely beyond the point I was making.)

My main point in this thread is quite simple. Big wigs, on both sides, are currently moving Zoner RP in every which way. Deny it if you must, but it is true.

It may not be a faction power-grab, but it does have ulterior motives. Denying it just insults everyone's intelligence.

The CoZ gave more power to the independents, and the ZA gives more power to the factions. Then, you have an independent farce attached to the ZA, by some other organisation whose acronym escapes my memory. Then, you have people like me, who are quite tired of the politics, and who moved to a particular FP, or limited ZoI, where the policies made by either organisation mean nothing.

I cannot remember the last time I saw a CoZ member, or any of the factions pass by FP2. On that note, and frankly, if you are going to act all uppity in that area, the chances of my Zoner shooting you for being one of the political nightmares he tried to escape is highly likely.

At this point in time, both sides are stuck in limbo, but three things can happen:

* Both sides can merge.
* Both sides can stay apart and continuously fight.
* One side ceases to exist.

I hope for either option one or two. The third option, in my opinion, will lead to a very dark place.

Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

**Doc Holliday** · 12-05-2009, 08:07 AM,

Sam, I'm sorry to see you go. We had some good RP. Don't be too much of a stranger.

I've purposely been sitting out of this thread because all that I feel has been said. With TAZ being the oldest Zoner faction around and one of the first of Sirius thanks to my old friend, Malcalypse, we take pride in what we are. We also enjoy working with the other factions.

Many thought the ZA was a power grab. Fact is, the factions acted mostly on their own, working their own agendas and having their own basis. We would work together for common Zoner issues as needed and even, with permission, represent each other in possible business opportunites. I don't see a power grab in that.

Quote:The CoZ gave more power to the independents

Is was also those independents that brought it down. When I chaired CoZ, I got complaints from all over Sirius about indies using slaves as crew from numerous factions. If I had booted them like they wanted, there would be no CoZ. The smuggling done by indies also reflected on us all even if I repeatedly told people that if they're caught, they're on their own.

All the internal disputes cost me a friend in Malcalypse who left after he had had enough. Now, Sam is gone. I'm sick of watching good people leave over differences of opinion.

[MFE]Med Force One | Tales of Recovery|Med Force Enterprises

DarthCloakedGuy · 12-05-2009, 08:13 AM,

' Wrote:Freeport 18 is under control of Sebastien LaHoue. It's the only privately owned Freeport, I believe.

EDIT: Besides Andre, you were the one thinking that Zoners in Penn were OORP the other day, and proved me that you didn't know a tiny single bit of Zoner RP. Zoners don't have Battleships in-RP, and they certainly aren't ''Civilian Battleships''.

Eh, a rose by any other name still has as many Battleship Turrets. Call it whatever you want, doesn't change what it is.

"What? No, I didn't steal the H.M.S. York. This is my... erm... cruise liner! Yeah!"
"It has battleship turrets."
"...and?"

HISPANIANS, FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF HER PEOPLE
A Plea to the Outcasts (PG)
CHARACTERS:
LR-I.Got.Nothin', LR-Empty.Pockets, and LR-Dead.End = "Lash" McDaggit of the Liberty Rogues.
SMUG~Eat.My.Exhaust = Jane Terraman and Bob McAdams, smugglers of the Liberty Rogues.
[H]Cj.Martino.Perez = Martino Perez, self-declared Counselor of the Hispanians.
AVATAR MADE BY SPIRIT! THE AWESOME.

**jammi** · 12-05-2009, 12:24 PM,

' Wrote:All the internal disputes cost me a friend in Malcalypse who left after he had had enough. Now, Sam is gone. I'm sick of watching good people leave over differences of opinion.

Bloody hell, you'd think people would just learn to have characters in alternate factions that they could play when the Zoners got jammed up with gremlins.

I mean c'mon, would it be so hard to have a KSP, or a Bowex, or a Hessian? Try staying out of the Omicrons for a while - find something in House space (preferably not Liberty).

You lot should get some fresh air from the Zoners, then come back when things have simmered down... Why do people have to pour so much personal emotion into a game?

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