In response to recent GMG - KNF diplomacy

[bluntpencil2001]

Wouldn't the powerful Kishiro kieretsu lobby for the government to do as the GMG wish? It is, of course, Kishiro's biggest trade partner outside of Kusari.

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[Jien Kogen]

Wouldn't the powerful Kishiro kieretsu lobby for the government to do as the GMG wish? It is, of course, Kishiro's biggest trade partner outside of Kusari.

Yes, and the even more powerful Samura lobby would be pushing against it, hard to figure out how it would play out, maybe thats why it's better to play it out in-game.

on a side note, was wondering when you would get here Blunty.

[bluntpencil2001]

Yes, and the even more powerful Samura lobby would be pushing against it, hard to figure out how it would play out, maybe thats why it's better to play it out in-game.

on a side note, was wondering when you would get here Blunty.

You obviously ignored my accusations of monkey poo flinging.

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[DeathsOverture]

First to the Sigma's, the KNF doesnt patrol the Sigma's because it feels the GMG have it under control, but, it reserves to do whatever it wants should the situation change. We dont need to ask permission from the GMG to enter the Sigma's and that is very important. What would be best for Kusari/GMG relations in my view point would be a document in which the Kusari government recognizes GMG sovereignty over Okinawa, while at the same time the GMG recognizes the vital Kusari interests in Okinawa and will not now or in the future restrict Kusari operations in Okinawa so long as the Kusari forces notify the GMG if possible when entering the system. Once that was done, the Kusari and GMG could talk about building tradelanes from the Okinawa JG to Planet Honshu.

Love it.

Any volunteers to draft such a document? I am decent in google docs (see GMG Freelance Trade Agreement), and would be happy to do it, but I won't have time until Thursday.

Of course this all depends on removing the lane. Would it be helpful for us to put it to a community vote to get support?

edit: Who knows why it was a double post...

edit: GMG Guild Masters, what do you think? (I don't have access to skype, on a crappy network that blocks it)

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[Jien Kogen]

Love it.

Any volunteers to draft such a document? I am decent in google docs (see GMG Freelance Trade Agreement), and would be happy to do it, but I won't have time until Thursday.

Of course this all depends on removing the lane. Would it be helpful for us to put it to a community vote to get support?

edit: Who knows why it was a double post...

edit: GMG Guild Masters, what do you think? (I don't have access to skype, on a crappy network that blocks it)

I think it would work without the lanes being removed, but would I think work better and be more dynamic if the tradelanes were removed. I can work on a draft, but am working on finals till thursday, so I wouldnt really be able to put much effort to it till then.

[BaconSoda]

What do you mean by 'to continue such roleplay'?

Do you mean that, after any mod changes are implemented, that Kusari will continue to claim sovereignity over Okinawa?

What I mean is that the interest in Okinawa will be ongoing. It will culminate in many things. I can't say we will or will not attempt to claim sovereignty in Okinawa, but it would not be as it was this time, if we do. Samura will try and gain more ground in Okinawa, however, the way in which it attains it would not be so militant as we seem to have given a notion to when the implications of both a Jump Gate and Trade Lane were built directly to Planet Honshu were unclear to both sides (And I do think we both still do have a bit of different expectations). It's the RP of the system (is it not?), and so Samura (And the Kusari government by extension, since they're so intertwined, though Kishiro is making great strides) has nothing but an obligation to fulfill its interest in Okinawa, be it successful or not. The culmination of this RP might result in anything. All I'm saying is that the RP will continue.

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[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.

[Dab]

I just don't understand what the big deal here is besides chest thumping over whether or not Okinawa is yours. It can exist as Sigma-13 and Sigma-19 exist, however, if you'd be so kind as to notice, there are KNF NPCs in these systems, at least at the gate, meaning that yes, the KNF can patrol there.

There are no KSP or KNF NPCs in Okinawa at all. And I've never seen any in Sigma-19 or 13.

If we're talking about Kusari in RP, then let's see some roleplay of the government pressuring the GMG, looking for a reason to step in, and pressing the Hogosha and AFA harder to make the GMG projects fail in Okinawa, or even issuing ultimatums. For the record, that is not what we've seen so far.

This said here was exactly the kind of RP I was trying to encourage, which is why I was aggravated about the 'minimalist' course taken so far on certain group's parts. I commend the Hogosha and GMG for setting up and doing their first event successfully. But I need to see others willing to take those same steps to maximize role play for everyone, not just in their interest.

I have discussed the matter with another, and we agreed that if the lane connects directly to Honshu, there should be a border station next to the Honshu -> Okinawa gate in Honshu just like Akita in the case of Sigma-13. This came up in the first Okinawa thread as well. What do you think?

I'll add a Border Station as another fix for Okinawa, but the lanes won't come down, it'll cause too much of a problem. I am, however, still looking for a way to fit the gate on the map, connected to Aomori. Either way there will be KNF/KSP patrols on the Honshu side. Border Station depends on whether or not I can get it connected to Aomori without having the gate off the side of the map. The current Sigma-19 gate make placement tricky.

I think this is a wonderful idea, and would allow the Kusari players to feel like they are a part of the rp.
Let me clarify my statements on Okinawa. When I say Okinawa is Kusari space, I am saying Okinawa is in the Kusari region of space, where the Kusari Empire has many interests. Okinawa connects two pieces of Kusari space, it has Blood Dragon, GC, Hogosha, and Kishiro bases, all are Kusari factions. Kusari has many interests in the Okinawa system, and the Kusari government will not allow anyone to stand in the way of our defending of those Kusari interests.

Hopefully that clarifies our position oorp better.

I think this is what Death has been looking for. The misunderstanding was centered around people thinking Okinawa was actually part of the Kusari Empire, not just part of the Kusari region of space.

However, there is a bit of metagaming going on in decisions. You, and Bacon, both mention the BD and GC bases as support for your side of the issue.. But in-RP, the Kusari government, nor Kishiro or Hogosha, know of the existance of these two bases. They are both in nebulas severely restricting scanner range, with plenty of defenses to kill anyone who may stumble upon them. Its logical to assume that the GMG knows of the existance (and probably location gained from scouts) of Sendai, and Interspace knows of Matsuda, but thats as far as that information would go. Just like no one but Hogosha, FA, and possibly Samura know of the location of the Hogosha base. The GC wrecks near the station (and the Hogosha wrecks near Sendai) are to show that those who stumble upon these bases and aren't friends are shot and killed before they can get that information back to their organization.

I think Kusari was expressing discontent with the idea of having to travel through Okinawa to make the Nagano<->Honshu transit without governing Okinawa. Zelot made a thread a bit back about switching them.

By the way, I didn't propose the idea because I like it. If Kishiro has say in the government, yes they'd probably want to connect Honshu to Okinawa, but I am sure that Samura would have more say in the matter, and want to connect Honshu to Nagano. Faster routes is more profit, right?

Alternatively, can we put a gate North of Honshu to Nagano? That would make Honshu a link to many systems, but also bypass the need for Samura to transit Okinawa, which is clearly in the best interest of the government.

Thank you Markus and Brad. I, as well, noticed that Kishiro took a hit in 4.85...

Just to be clear, as planned, Nagano will apparently have gates to both Okinawa and Hokkaido. (according to Dab, but I don't feel like hunting more quotes but I've put it in this thread already..) However, the GMG making a route through Okinawa to Nagano doesn't make sense because it will undoubtedly increase Hogosha/Alliance interest, and cause KNF/KSP/Samura presence. At the same time, the GMG won't give up Okinawa to the Kusari Government easily, as they've already invested so much there. (See Prowler's posts) This is why I thought connecting Nagano and Honshu would be better practice for both the GMG and the Kusari government... but hey, geography isn't perfect and maybe that's what the dev's intended. Maybe there's a reason these two systems could not be connected - but to be sure, I haven't heard it yet except from an developer's standpoint OORP.

And yeah, Kishiro should be able to put in the lanes because they and the GMG have such an influence in the Honshu system, culturally, economically, and perhaps politically. Wouldn't you rather roleplay it though?

Also, I can't think of where a border station exists without a lane to it so a battleship might be more appropriate. (Thank you Hawkwings)

Nagano is getting a gate both to Okinawa and Hokkaido. The Okinawa part may change depending on relations between GMG/Kishiro and Kusari at the end of 4.85. The plan currently is that it was built due to political pressure Samura was putting on the government, who in turn put pressure on GMG/Kishiro. The gate is built to appease Samura so they have easier access to Nagano from Honshu. Then there is going to be a gate from Hokkaido to Nagano as well. I like the idea I saw of making the Chugoku gate changed to the Nagano one. I'll ask Igiss if I can do that.

Even after the Nagano-Okinawa gate is finished, KNF/KSP presence in Okinawa will be minimal. Samura will have some trade going through there, but it'll be slight because of the Hokkaido-Nagano gate.

And as said above, the lane to the Okinawa gate won't be removed, but the Border station will be added (unless I can get it connected to Aomori).

First to the Sigma's, the KNF doesnt patrol the Sigma's because it feels the GMG have it under control, but, it reserves to do whatever it wants should the situation change. We dont need to ask permission from the GMG to enter the Sigma's and that is very important. What would be best for Kusari/GMG relations in my view point would be a document in which the Kusari government recognizes GMG sovereignty over Okinawa, while at the same time the GMG recognizes the vital Kusari interests in Okinawa and will not now or in the future restrict Kusari operations in Okinawa so long as the Kusari forces notify the GMG if possible when entering the system. Once that was done, the Kusari and GMG could talk about building tradelanes from the Okinawa JG to Planet Honshu.

edit: wrong account obvioulsy.

This is where you need to start with the RP. You need to role play these discussions happening with GMG, not going over their head and claiming the right to patrol there. Diplomacy first..

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[BaconSoda]

However, there is a bit of metagaming going on in decisions. You, and Bacon, both mention the BD and GC bases as support for your side of the issue.. But in-RP, the Kusari government, nor Kishiro or Hogosha, know of the existance of these two bases. They are both in nebulas severely restricting scanner range, with plenty of defenses to kill anyone who may stumble upon them. Its logical to assume that the GMG knows of the existance (and probably location gained from scouts) of Sendai, and Interspace knows of Matsuda, but thats as far as that information would go. Just like no one but Hogosha, FA, and possibly Samura know of the location of the Hogosha base. The GC wrecks near the station (and the Hogosha wrecks near Sendai) are to show that those who stumble upon these bases and aren't friends are shot and killed before they can get that information back to their organization.

Metagaming? A serious accusation, here. Upon searching the thread with the word "base", I can't see where it's coming from.

To say there is a significant GC and BD presence coming form Okinawa is easy to spot as a KNF or KSP officer. It isn't as if the Police don't keep records of the origins of criminal attacks. They wouldn't know anything about the bases, no, but the fact that there is a lot of criminal activity coming from this system proves that the system is a hub for criminal activity, and the KNF would think the GMG need help in suppressing it, as they don't know about the GMG's connections with the Kusari criminal groups either. It's simple logic, I thought....

And as said above, the lane to the Okinawa gate won't be removed, but the Border station will be added (unless I can get it connected to Aomori).

This is where you need to start with the RP. You need to role play these discussions happening with GMG, not going over their head and claiming the right to patrol there. Diplomacy first..

But a gate and lane would never be built without the stipulations that are currently present in the Sigmas. That is the GMG can deal with the area themselves, however, if need arises, the KNF comes to help them, without their permission, but with notification. Why would Kusari let the GMG build a gate like this without such assurance of being able to keep its borders safe? Despite the fact that it is independent, the GMG is still a corporation (Somewhat a guild, blah-blah, I know, corporation is the best word I can find to adequately describe it), and the KNF is a military force. The abilities of the two are very different, despite the fact that the guild attempts to keep the peace in the border worlds. Kusari needs that assurance to build a lane and a gate....

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[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.

[Dab]

Metagaming? A serious accusation, here. Upon searching the thread with the word "base", I can't see where it's coming from.

Both you and Jien had them in parts of your posts 2 pages back (2 pages for me, I've got 40 a page). I'm just telling you not to factor that into your role play decisions.

To say there is a significant GC and BD presence coming form Okinawa is easy to spot as a KNF or KSP officer. It isn't as if the Police don't keep records of the origins of criminal attacks. They wouldn't know anything about the bases, no, but the fact that there is a lot of criminal activity coming from this system proves that the system is a hub for criminal activity, and the KNF would think the GMG need help in suppressing it, as they don't know about the GMG's connections with the Kusari criminal groups either. It's simple logic, I thought....
But a gate and lane would never be built without the stipulations that are currently present in the Sigmas. That is the GMG can deal with the area themselves, however, if need arises, the KNF comes to help them, without their permission, but with notification. Why would Kusari let the GMG build a gate like this without such assurance of being able to keep its borders safe? Despite the fact that it is independent, the GMG is still a corporation (Somewhat a guild, blah-blah, I know, corporation is the best word I can find to adequately describe it), and the KNF is a military force. The abilities of the two are very different, despite the fact that the guild attempts to keep the peace in the border worlds. Kusari needs that assurance to build a lane and a gate....

I know they would detect presence coming from there, but they don't know if it originates there. For all the KNF/KSP know, GC and BD could be passing through Okinawa, rather than basing there.

And the lane/gate was built because it was Kishiro, part of Kusari and with considerable political connections, especially concerning Honshu. GMG played a part in getting it, but it was mainly Kishiro that got it authorized.

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[ProwlerPC]

This is looking very progressive. I agree whole-heartedly that both GMG and Kusari would indeed each have hard copies on record in their archive that detail the binding agreements of the relations between the organization and the house. Afterall the rumours state specifically that the H-fuel agreement (the key factor) that GMG has had with either Samura or Kishiro was an actual contract. So far the RP thread is fine in my opinion and some of the chest beating in this one should have been also RP'd in that thread as well. I fully believe, based on what I've read in-game, that the sabre rattling between GMG and Kusari would have happened on a regular (almost ritual) basis. Each side being so stubborn that neither can make any concessions regarding space and instead a Document is drafted that details what each others ships can or cannot do in the other's space, what may or may not require permission. This Document's details tend change back and forth in favor throughout history depending diplomatic strength of the arguments at the time which in actuallity translates to the "back bone" of the leadership of each at that time.

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