"Sadly true and something I've said a lot of time before. It's a hell of a lot easier to not notice a lolwutting liberator than a lolwutting Lib Carrier, just due to sheer size."
sadly - if people don t reflect the whole context of the discussion - they will come to the conclusion that...
capital warship = bad, - liberator = good
instead of getting to the conclusion that it doesn t really matter - but it should be
be a jerk in any ship = bad
and thats what much of the anti-cap / pro-cap discussion really achieves. - elevates fighters to holyness for no reason and condemns capital ships to hell for no reason, too ( or for the wrong reasons )
So take the least important and most throw-away part of my whole post and pick up on that will you? Great work Jinx.
Look... If you're sat looking at two ships, one is a liberator and the other a lib carrier, which would you look at first?
Actualy, wait, don't answer that... Lets stay on topic. Just read my post again Jinx and look what I was actualy saying rather than picking up on a minor point I added as an afterthought.
' Wrote:It's the same each time. All the self righteous defenders of the plebs, women, children, small forest animals, nature, and whatever is the trend exaggerate, panic, and over-theorize.
Can you honestly tell me that when you see a destroyer, cruiser, or battleship lolling around, killing Light Fighters, while not RPing at all, would not deserve it's ship privileges taken away?
Oh please.
And as for the... "Every ship can be abused." sentence.
Yes, precisely, absolutely, sure it can.
But. What you forget is that a capital ship, and nay, a group of capital ships, can do much much more damage than a few fighters can.
Oh I forgot. You'll just ignore me.
But seriously people.. Don't be utterly pessimistic and refuse possible solutions to problems we have.
I was on my Order Recon Destroyer the other day. At FP11. Keepers as usual, were lolling about trying to "Icanhazurbase" sort of thing. There was a Juggernaut fighting a Keeper BS and an LF zooming about. I moved to engage the BS, since it would not be fun for me to shoot something that has the armour of a VHF and dodges like a Starflea on steroids. I figure the LF would like that too. As I cruise towards the fight, suddenly my engines are disrupted, Nomad Lasers are firing on me and this transparent globule is dropping mines on me. I engaged it. Let us imagine that I was carefree, unaware of the drama and politics, and not so paranoid as to have my SS button pressed more than my right click mouse button, and someone was to cause a ruckus because an independent Order capital ship was literally firing on an LF? Right. I can see the community being extremely forgiving in this instance in the new open, transparent process you propose.
Let us go through responses on Skype, since it is utilised as a primary real-time communication machine, for various hostile ships.
Battleships, get at least three people online with bombers.
Bombers, eh. (At minimum response, it gets no-one on.)
Now, let us compare the "wtfpwn":size ratio of these two ships. Let us compare the cost. Let us if we can, count the number of bombers, as opposed to battleships on the server. (Oh yes, the BS is definitely the problem.)
' Wrote:all they have to do is not say lol in system chat and rape light fighters with their battleships.
Tell people who get raped by 4 dreadnoughts how we're handling it.
Tell me how we're handling it when they ruin an hour long time of RP which is getting capped(Ooh, wrong word choice perhaps.) off with a nice fight.
If your LF gets creamed by a BS, in this particular mod, you need to learn how to fly, or how to RP.
If you are here for the RP, then the hour-long RP is all that matters. Unless of course, you are here for the PVP.
Match the colours for some fun.
' Wrote:Look... If you're sat looking at two ships, one is a liberator and the other a lib carrier, which would you look at first?
Whilst rhetorical, I think people would look at the Liberator first since there are Carriers than anything else. (Just to clarify, my statement is sarcastic because people have a disbelief that battleships outnumber every other ship on the server put together.)
As to what Swift suggested, type out in a couple of paragraphs how exactly you want to implement your system. I know you may feel you just did that, but it was interlaced with rhetoric and a bit messy.
Fine... Pick up on something unimportant in my post again, in order to make a snarky comment about battleships.
You can carry on talking about how blah is biased against blah, or 'everyone hates caps' or whatever, but it actualy isn't the point. It's just about treating each other like humans.
Well, I never said my LF gets killed by battleships.
And you can't just ignore them, that's the point.
How can you RP if you get interrupted by dreadnoughts with solarises firing on you?
It ain't no theory, this happens.
And as for the color thing, kudos on being pinpointey accurate.
You got me on the first teal one, got a partial on the green one, and a full scale miss on the second teal one.
And anyways.
I give up.
I just ask for people who are on chars that are my enemy in-RP so I can't help them to have understanding when they get ganked.
I don't want anyone complaining or resenting me any more.
I'll do my best to always be fair, those who don't, they can stick their "RP" where the sun don't shine.
Here's for you, lolcaps. *raises cup*
<span style="font-familyalatino Linotype">
<span style="color:#000000">All morons hate it when you call them a moron.
i haven t pointed out what i think that "you" want to transport with your post. - but what is the general agreement - which is derived from threats like that and the replies included.
not at all is it *your* post. - but there is an undeniable trend when it comes to considering good RP. - we ( and that is the majority that speaks up, not the majority as such ) apply much much harder standards the larger the ship is. - when the problem is hardly the ship but the player.
now - while your argument is of course true ... a carrier that behaves like a jerk stand out more than a liberator. - by always saying "capships are bad" in stead of saying that certain players are bad, no matter what ship they fly .... it comes down to the ship and not the player. - that might be an unwanted effect - but thats what rethorics are for.
so - lets get to that nice little image with 4 carriers on one screen.
we don t know if they RPed or anything - BUT we assume that they are "bad". - if they had been 4 anubis fighters - we d have said .. "wow, look at that great bunch of RPers, they even form a wing and are probably going to hunt in a perfect RP manner"
but just cause they are carriers, we think they are bad.
and what i pointed out is.... - cause we transport that idea ( intentionally or unintentionally ) - we also say that ... IF they had been fighters - they had been "good". - henceforth, we focus on the ships and not the players. - when i m flying a light fighter - i have to "work" much harder to be considered a bad RPer.. while in a battleship, one sometimes don t even need to do ANYTHING at all to be considered a bad RPer.
so you might be pissed at me for picking the least "throwaway part" - but if its really such an insignificant part.... it would not have needed to be written down... since it was written down, it must have been "important enough to write" - and so you cannot blame me for picking something you wrote.
' Wrote:not at all is it *your* post. - but there is an undeniable trend when it comes to considering good RP. - we ( and that is the majority that speaks up, not the majority as such ) apply much much harder standards the larger the ship is. - when the problem is hardly the ship but the player.
Thats tru. The problem isn't a ship. There are no ships that magically make a player behave like an OoRP idiot when they buy one. It doesn't work like that. However what frequently happens is caps are nought by those who feel the need to be powerful.
Thats understandable I think. Caps are, after all, more powerful than fighters. They are a status symbol, and often a rather misplaced one.
In my humble opinion, caps are harder to roleplay than a fighter. You have so many more people on board. Going into a combat situation is a much bigger deal. You have to have, in your head, the mannerisms discussions and personalities of multiple people. With a fighter, you don't.
I believe that takes more skill, practice, experience, whatever... However, learning to use a large and powerful ship in a considerate way, is no harder than learning to use a fighter, bomber, camera ship, baseball bat and spacesuit... whatever in a considerate and decent way.
Personally, I would not have said "gosh what an awesome group of roleplayers in those fighters" had that been a picture of four anubis's and a sekhmet rather than four LC's and an Osiris. My responce to the picture was "Thats a lot of caps. It's really unpleasent when that decends on your keeper bomber". You can make no judgement on the people involved from a picture unless it shows them actualy doing something, which it doesn't...
Anyone who sees a battleship and goes "oh that must be a bad roleplayer" is an idiot. However, the idea that people would be more annoyed by a battleship being oorp than a fighter is understandable. Trying to avoid hyperbole in either direction would probably be a good idea.
but i have also observed - that battleship players are ( at least at the times i met them or seen their behaviour ) - often less aggressive than bombers / fighters. ( cruisers / battlecruisers .... thats to be observed ) - but battleships are very often a lot more passive - unless there s a general testosterone rush around.
in the current state - a bomberpilot that goes berserk and attacks left and right can usually only loose his char life and a few credits...
a battleship that does the same looses his reputation and dignity - which is worth a lot more than just the few credits for the respawn.
so in my experience - battleships are if anything - dogs that bark. - but gunboats / bombers / fighters are dogs that bite ( sometimes also without barking before ) - but of course, i hardly ever visit the deep house space or the pirate homeworlds.
' Wrote:Fine... Pick up on something unimportant in my post again, in order to make a snarky comment about battleships.
You can carry on talking about how blah is biased against blah, or 'everyone hates caps' or whatever, but it actualy isn't the point. It's just about treating each other like humans.
Actually, it was a snarky comment about the hypocrisy of the community, but eh, snarky nonetheless.
' Wrote:You got me on the first teal one, got a partial on the green one, and a full scale miss on the second teal one.
The colours match up.:P
Seriously though, Joe and Swift, I will reply to your posts more in the morning.
Assuming Joe unlocks the thread if it is locked, or I can just make a new one and have someone, come in and picture-spam it later.
In this specific case, I really think it's just the Order carrier.
It's bigger than the Osiris, yet only about half it's price. People get it maybe for the name or for the 18 turrets and then come on the forums saying it needs all battleship eqquipment. It's happened before, and these people don't realize that the carrier is not ment for pvp fighting at all. It's ment to support fighters and stay out of range just as it's rp dictate. And it's rp is widely mis-used and abused and barely any real carrier owners use it that way.
I say either shoot the price way up (to about 700 mil) or idk, figure something out because it's just a real shame and annoying.
Take the Liberty carrier. How many of those do you see around? Barely any? I've only ever seen 1 and that was an LN carrier I think, Michigan or something like that. What does this tell us? That the price does do something and only the truly dedicated on getting a carrier and using it for it's purpose would get it. Not the cheap price and large amount of turrets and sheer size of the vessel like we see with the Order carrier.
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