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Thexare · 08-10-2009, 06:55 AM,

' Wrote:Every single Mk II Fighter, both LF, HF and VHF have models that are exact replicas of their Mk I fighter.

Patriot > Liberator
Cavalier > Hussar
Drake > Wyrm
Banshee > Phantom
Dagger > Scimitar
Hawk > Griffin
Legionnaire > Decurion
Piranha > Sea Serpent
Bloodhound > Hyena

Plus all the HFs and VHFs that have Mk II versions... as you can see all of them use the same model. So I say no to this replacing the Griffin, but it will make a great addition to the Starship line. Starflier, Startracker etc.

By that logic, we shouldn't replace the imports. They're placeholders, just like the copied models are.

On an unrelated note, is there anything you don't say no to?

elgeeko · 08-10-2009, 07:00 AM,

Well Military ships will not change *nearly* as appreciably as the Griffin did. indeed most ships wont.

Infact Id say its easily the single most radical change by far.

With the others I'm looking at a possible range. The change can be more or less obvious based on majority opinion. :)

As for the MK II's being exact copies of the MK I's... thats exactly why I am doing this.

New ships in a line are all well and good, but why are we making new ships when we don't even have specific models for each class already in the line?

There is no way you can advance a ship as much as the MK II's are advanced over the MK I's without effecting visible external change to the spaceframe.

Lets take a Wrath for example (compared to its MK I the Valkyrie) it mounts higher weapons classes, produces almost 3 times as much power, mounts a shield 2 classes up and has 20 extra units of cargo space to boot despite all these doubtless larger bulkier systems.. Its recharge and hull armor are twice as high (sauce for the goose).

There is no physical way to effect that radical a systems change without leaving visual evidence. No way in the physical universe, even in sci fi.

In the Griffin's case it is an extreme visual change, in the Wrath's case it will be much less so, no more than a slightly different cant to the wings, bigger engines with sleeker farings, thicker armor in some spots, and a larger power plant.

Some of these visual differences might be small, but I think they will, together, add alot to the mod.

Also, Thexare nailed it.

The only thing worse and more evil than an import is a copy cat
At least an import has a unique look which is more than the copies can say. :P

n00bl3t · 08-10-2009, 07:10 AM,

I like the model.

Well done.

Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

tansytansey · 08-10-2009, 07:10 AM,

' Wrote:On an unrelated note, is there anything you don't say no to?

Sometimes, if I think it's a genuniely a good idea and I have no input I can add. But usually I don't post in threads unless I have constructive input, that's why you won't see me agreeing often.

Sometimes even if I agree with an idea I'll still debate it (or certain aspects of it) especially if everyone else in the community is posting useless crap like "I agree!" "/signed!"
That's not constructive at all, and to quote a good friend of mine:
"Quit riding his nuts, jock-strap"

At least when I debate a topic I'm being constructive. It helps work out all the flaws and makes you question the need and seriousness of the proposal. If everyone simply agreed with a topic then we'd be adding heaps of crap to the mod without thinking it through, and then it will require rebalancing/removing later on. Creates double handling, so, better I bring up valid arguments now than wait until it gets added to the game and turns out to actually suck...

Also, I don't believe Mk II fighters are place holders. They're there so you can fly Vanilla Ships without them being horribly under powered. Because lets face it, people love Vanilla Ships.

http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv46/Ni...gcloudscopy.png
Image turned into a URL because it made your sig too tall. -Zuke
|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes "Nighthawk" Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.
[Image: SLRU.png]

elgeeko · 08-10-2009, 07:19 AM,

In a way you make a good point, however Id also argue that people get plenty of opportunity to fly vanilla ships anyways. in-fact I always spend a few days in a Defender on new characters just because I love the design so much and will never get a chance to legally use it again. *tear*

Besides, I'm not altering the rest of them so much that their vanillaness is gone.

The Griffin is also a special case because the only difference in the rest of the civilian line is some farings and fins and I wanted to end that trend with a 'BANG'
If you miss the shape and don't want a hawk, theres a simple solution; go fly an eagle.

Lets also face the fact that people love new ships too (Assuming they're well designed, which all the current custom ones in Disco that I have seen so far are indeed :cool: )

Its one of the main 'selling points' of the mod.

In any case, constructive criticism much appreciated, but unless the admins put a stop-sign up or the majority cry out in fury, I'm gonna keep on working on this and see where it leads :)
The eventual goal being to submit a replacement for every MK-II before '.86, or failing that (God-forbid) before '.87 for sure.

You might even be pleasantly surprised by how I handle some of the other prototypes. We shall see...

At any rate I am exhausted and I have a date scheduled with the Scimitar and MS-3d tomorrow that I dont want to miss....

tansytansey · 08-10-2009, 07:33 AM,

' Wrote:If you miss the shape and don't want a hawk, theres a simple solution; go fly an eagle.

I think all the Civi line 'bird' ships are ugly x3

For ships like the House Military/Police ships, I think you should leave them be.

Ships I think you should make models for are:
Legionnaire/Decurion
Piranha/Sea Serpent (People complain that the Sea Serpent is terrible. There isn't a whole lot of room for creativity in the BH line, so it might be hard to make a better model.)
Bloodhound/Hyena (It's currently a Light Fighter the size of a HF -- Possibly even bigger.)

There's a reason those three ships aren't used often... maybe a revamp will bring some more interest back to them.

http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv46/Ni...gcloudscopy.png
Image turned into a URL because it made your sig too tall. -Zuke
|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes "Nighthawk" Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.
[Image: SLRU.png]

Janus · 08-10-2009, 07:48 AM,

In my opinion, the Eagle is the worst looking ship of the 'Bird' line, Roc included. I have no desire to fly one, at all.

The Hawk and the Falcon were my favourite vanilla ships, one reason I enjoy flying a Griffin and I'd love to see a mk II Falcon, using the existing Falcon model.

I can see the desire to have 'improved' models for the mk IIs, equally I can sympathise with those who are against it, some people just wont want to have a favourite model touched.

BTW, regarding your comment about the Defender, doesn't the Guardian use the same model?

reavengitair · 08-10-2009, 08:57 AM,

Quote:BTW, regarding your comment about the Defender, doesn't the Guardian use the same model?

Yes, it does.

elgeeko · 08-10-2009, 03:38 PM,

Indeed, but I never ever play a Liberty lawful...

For now Id like to ask that we pause the debate over whether to do MK-II's
(or what MK-II's to redo and not redo.)

Let me stress again that what happens with this depends on majority opinion and eventual submission acceptance.

Based on feedback I will run a poll on the house military MK-II's after I have several to show off, and we will see whether people want the straight vanillas or not. (It seems like the best way to get straight opinions based directly on my work and the situation in question)

Irrespective of that however I do intend to submit, at the very least, the Griffin.
I only 'kinda-sorta' like the Hawk model and I don't feel it does justice to the Griffin at all.
So there is no dissuading me from that one. :P

I will also surely follow up on non-house MK-II's even if popular opinion prefers the vanilla models for the military ships. Maybe run another poll and such.

Right now someone requested the Scimitar, so the Scimitar I will do (and post some comparison pictures for the Griffin)

Im then going to do some Military MK-II's and work up a compiled set of comparison pictures for your viewing and polling pleasure.

Stay tuned! :D
(and until then, again, please nothing but critique for the ship itself. Now that two very good points have been made (pro and con) there is nothing else to be said on the matter until there are models for the House MK-II's for people to have an opinion *about* ;) )

elgeeko · 08-10-2009, 06:15 PM,

OK, as promised a possible prototype for the Scimitar;

[Image: compshot.png]

http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/f...mitar/ortho.png

http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/f...ar/aftortho.png

http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/f...entralortho.png

The perspective does distort the size comparison a bit, thats MS-3d's fault.
For reference the cockpit sub-structure is exactly the same size in both, they are the same length and width at their longest and widest points.

Ive already fixed the distorted texture spot on the nose, I just didn't feel like a second screenshot and upload.

Also as promised, a griffin comparison shot;

http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/f...in/compshot.png

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to see "Freelancer; Episode III: the Wrath of the Wrath"

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Poll: Mark-II's, how should they be handled? (voting option 2 does not mean you directly endorse all my protoypes, just the basic idea) You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Keep the House Military MK-II's the Vanilla models, but look into altering the other MK-II's	21.59%	19	21.59%
Do them all over in the style shown	78.41%	69	78.41%
Total		88 vote(s)	100%