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Tenacity · 08-16-2009, 01:04 AM,

I'm completely against the sale of ships.

First off, it allows people who generally have no idea what kind of RP they should be doing to get a ship that's already fully repped, it takes the work out of building the character and, in my opinion, promotes more lolwutting idiots on the server.

Secondly, most of these ship sales do not involve any kind of RP, just "I'm selling my military battleship to the highest bidder, lololol, buy eet nao!" - if you're selling any sort of military vessel , it needs to be RP'd out as having the vessel transferred to a new commander within the same faction.

Lastly, it ends up creating situations like we see with ReVan's order gunboat - which is not order tagged or ID'd, and is completely hostile to the order while friendly towards it's allies. That alone is sanctionable, but it causes a lot of problems for the faction the ship used to belong to - the order cant have random people around sirius using our technology, it's forbidden for a reason.

If a faction gives you permission to use one of their ships on an unaffiliated character, that ship stays yours or it gets scrapped, you dont go selling high grade technology to random civilians, or worse... that faction's enemies.

I dont think ship sales should have been allowed in the first place, and I wish the admins would start sanctioning anyone who does try to sell a ship.

Athenian · 08-16-2009, 09:09 AM,

Ship sales happen.

I've tried to strike a balance between allowing a system that is convenient for players to off-load ships that they no longer wish to be burdened with and keeping some degree of role-play in the role-play forums.

Ship sales conducted in the Stock Exchange have to be done in role-play - it is the role-play part of the Forum. If it is easier to make a quick sale in Flood people can try doing it there...but Flood has a tendency to attract less serious posters too.

That doesn't mean you are freed from the other requirements regarding characters ID's and ship restrictions. The day any ship sale counts towards "posted bio/story" for the tech chart is the day I eat my hat. So, by all means, sell your weirdly tagged Order GB - it will still have to follow the rules in game. And feel free to post in a ship sale demanding the vessel be transferred within the ranks of the organisation.

Former member of "the most paranoid group of people in the community"
Discovery Community Forum Rules

farmerman · 08-16-2009, 09:53 AM,

So long as it's not in the RP sales area if it's not inrp, it's theoretically fine. I'd prefer someone doing so to actually sell to someone they know would RP such a situation correctly though.

Faction info links: Samura Heavy Industries : LWB : Watchers

Colonel Z.e.r.o. · 08-19-2009, 03:43 AM,

' Wrote:Ship sales happen.

I've tried to strike a balance between allowing a system that is convenient for players to off-load ships that they no longer wish to be burdened with and keeping some degree of role-play in the role-play forums.

Ship sales conducted in the Stock Exchange have to be done in role-play - it is the role-play part of the Forum. If it is easier to make a quick sale in Flood people can try doing it there...but Flood has a tendency to attract less serious posters too.

That doesn't mean you are freed from the other requirements regarding characters ID's and ship restrictions. The day any ship sale counts towards "posted bio/story" for the tech chart is the day I eat my hat. So, by all means, sell your weirdly tagged Order GB - it will still have to follow the rules in game. And feel free to post in a ship sale demanding the vessel be transferred within the ranks of the organisation.

Worst case scenario, we could make the ship buy threads to require admin approval first.

Nathan's Log || The "Real Story" of Lenox Casper

mwerte · 08-19-2009, 04:06 AM,

Ship sales are exactly like buying guns from a gun dealer. If a Corsair is seen with Krakens ingame he had better have a better reason then "I got them off the gun dealer". Same for ships.

Fletcher · (This post was last modified: 08-21-2009, 07:33 PM by Fletcher.)

' Wrote:Ship sales are exactly like buying guns from a gun dealer. If a Corsair is seen with Krakens ingame he had better have a better reason then "I got them off the gun dealer". Same for ships.

So for example if a Liberty Navy capital ship goes up for sale, you will only allow it if it goes to a member of the same party?

In this essence, shouldn't it be a private auction, and not a public one on public channels?

Sorry, it just urks me that military, Order and Gallic ships are up for sale, and I can see people RP'ing the auction into their stories. Sure in most circumstances, its acceptable, but these top grade or closed group ships going for sale to all?

This just, gets on my nerves somewhat.

EDIT: I make a call for a chart to be brought up on what ships can, and can't be sold to all. Or a list of which ship can be sold to who. And if the chart is drawn up, will it be backed up by the rules via OORP?

"Oh chuffing blimey, another day, another person being whiney!"
Fletcher's Feedback and Stories Thread

carlabrams · 08-21-2009, 08:14 PM,

I understand why there are issues with ship sales.

At the same time, I've recently purchased three different capital ships from various players, one of which happened to be a Liberty Siege Cruiser. (The other two cap ships were in factions I already belonged to.) The first thing I did was rename that ship. I'm flying that ship now as an indie pilot that's still an LN pilot, albeit not part of the official faction - because for me, it's a whole lot easier and efficient from the time perspective to buy a pre-made ship.

Sentient Machine Alliance

chovynz · 08-21-2009, 10:55 PM,

Loosen up guys.
Don't take it so seriously.

Yes, there is a degree of unbelievably to some of the sales.
But stop crucifying people because of it.

More grace, less rules.
More opportunity, less concrete.

Now that we HAVE the ability to move ships, you want to remove that.
Not only that, you want to stop the sales of ships, because it doesn't suit hardcore RP (Realitivistic/simulationist) believability.

So, not only, are you suggesting, that this GAME is a full-time job, in gaining credits,
but you also want to kill some marvellous opportunity for good Roleplay.
Not only that you'll be shutting down some actual / real player helps.
Disco is not noob friendly. Ship sales, if managed properly, could become one of those things that
helps it become noob friendly.

' Wrote:1.) I dont think it sould be done for any military/corporation/guild ships, you wouldnt find an RAF pilot retiring and selling his plane on e-bay would you?

2.) Freelancers and mercs would be alright, as they are all privatly owned ships, as in not owned by a government or company (which all military/corp ships in RP would be).

' Wrote:2.)It is OK to sell is civilian line of ships, imho.

3.) But when it includes Guard rep and ID or even worse OORP IFF and ID (like one I almost bought few days ago) it shouldn't happen. I believe Guard vessels should not be allowed for trade. It kills the charm of the game and Guard rep is something that has to be earned. 4.) This way we can't control flux of people coming and going in and out of the factions.

' Wrote:3 & 4.) When it comes to Guard Rep ships, say no and no again.

Guard rep to me, you have my respect for putting up with the FL Engine, everyone to get guard rep to me, needs to RP a fair bit, and you'd need to since Guard rep is 'underground' or out of sight sort of thing, not public.

2.) Civilian ships, I'll never say no, as in Freelancer or Merc ships.

Tenacity Wrote:I'm completely against the sale of ships.

5.) First off, it allows people who generally have no idea what kind of RP they should be doing to get a ship that's already fully repped, it takes the work out of building the character and, in my opinion, promotes more lolwutting idiots on the server.

Secondly, most of these ship sales do not involve any kind of RP, just "I'm selling my military battleship to the highest bidder, lololol, buy eet nao!" - if you're selling any sort of military vessel , it needs to be RP'd out as having the vessel transferred to a new commander within the same faction.

7.) Lastly, it ends up creating situations like we see with ReVan's order gunboat - which is not order tagged or ID'd, and is completely hostile to the order while friendly towards it's allies. That alone is sanctionable, but it causes a lot of problems for the faction the ship used to belong to - the order cant have random people around sirius using our technology, it's forbidden for a reason.

If a faction gives you permission to use one of their ships on an unaffiliated character, that ship stays yours or it gets scrapped, you dont go selling high grade technology to random civilians, or worse... that faction's enemies.

I dont think ship sales should have been allowed in the first place, and I wish the admins would start sanctioning anyone who does try to sell a ship.

2.) So why is it ok for anyone to sell Civilian bombers, but it's not ok for indies/casual players/non-factionised players, to sell their ships NPC faction ships that they aren't going to be using anymore? If you support only "official factioned" people selling ships, then I suggest that the factions also take on the responsibility of supplying those same indies with ships. Until you do that, I do not feel that you have any right to demand that a casual player, or non factionised player, or indy, cannot sell their ships.

4.) Simple answer to that, You are not supposed to control the flux of people from faction to faction. You are not supposed to control people. Period. That is the admins job. And personal responsibility. Not yours. Not mine. There is FAR too much talk of controlling people here, on these forums.
People get off your high horses, and go actually help people instead of "telling them what to do". If you don't know the difference then don't "help" them at all.

5.) That is about the only real reason to disallow the sales of ships. But to quash the sales of ships based on this reason, is actually quite a weak argument. That whole "so that they spend time in their character, learning their RP" is a large bullcrappery. It was started by someone, potentially Igiss, continued by Jinx, and is continued through to today. It just doesn't work. It's also not as big an issue that it is made out to be.

7.) The key is here.

Athenian Wrote:That doesn't mean you are freed from the other requirements regarding characters ID's and ship restrictions. The day any ship sale counts towards "posted bio/story" for the tech chart is the day I eat my hat. So, by all means, sell your weirdly tagged Order GB - it will still have to follow the rules in game. And feel free to post in a ship sale demanding the vessel be transferred within the ranks of the organisation.

This is talking about personal responsibility. It is the person who owns the ship, it is their responsibility to ensure they are flying a ship that suits the server rules. I changed it to green because this is a "rule" that is common sense, and should be followed by all people, not just when a mod or admin brings it up specifically. It is such a good quote, it bears repeating. I'm no admin, but this'll go in admin green, because it is a "common sense rule".

If you buy a ship, it is your own responsibility to make sure it is flying by server rules. When you buy a ship, YOU become the owner (with the risk of other people having access to your FAM file.) You do not automatically inherit all the RP that comes with it, you might not understand it, or it might not suit you. That RP does not belong to you. It is your job, and DUTY, as a Discover player, to change names as soon as possible, to suit your own RP.

You cannot own someone else's RP. If you try, that is called fraudulence, and lying.

Rules are not made to take the place of personal responsibility.

Let's not shut down a golden RP opportunity, on the basis, of dislike, because it isn't in Hardcore RP. If you take the line of "Militaries wouldn't sell their ships" well my reply to you is, "Militaries supply those ships in the first place". If you are going to say, "no selling military ships", will you also say, "I, as military leadership, will supply those ships to you,"?

Because until you do, You cannot stop someone...
who you do not know, and they don't know you...
and you do not even care about....
and do not have any relationship with...
who does something you don't like....
based on your limited idea of what Roleplay is....
because of your own simulationist viewpoint...
from doing anything that you don't like.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Side issue @ Fletcher: I'm getting a little concerned that your focus on changing things,
and continual threads about what to change next, has gotten a bit "out of control."
It is starting to feel like you are trying a public pressure campaign for things you don't like.

These threads are "opinion polls", and as such they do not represent a good portion of those who will be
affected by your suggestions.

Please remember that this is just a game. You have casual players here as well.
You also have people who cannot RP very well, at the beginning. We don't want to scare them away,
with insanely hardcore RP elements and requirements. We want to teach them, not Hammer them.

Some of these people do not respond well to "YOU HAVE TO DO THIS, MY WAY" attitude with is very prevalent
here, in disco and on these forums, translated into ingame. For those that "are not learning" perhaps the solution is as simple as someone coming alongside them and building a relationship with them?

When you have a relationship with someone, and you build respect, and you treat them with respect,
They are more likely to listen to you when you say, "Oh by the way, did you realise your ship/ID/situation might be causing you some problems?"

No more new rule suggestions. Please. No more petitions to ban ship sales/weapon handling. No more wonderings on what you would do if an admin engaged cloaking device. No more petitions to stop base hugging, real ship physics, if admins should RP or not. Stop petitioning for more (too much) realism.
I know that there is a desire for order in this chaotic world called disco, but please...
[color=#FF6600]Relax!

Hopefully this is received in the intended spirit. I am not upset. I'm just tired of hearing about "we need more realism, more rules." This is just a game. And it should be a fun game. Fletcher isn't just the only one suggesting these "realism" things, so if the shoe fits, apply my comments to yourself. We currently are at a good place.

We do not need more rules to combat the behaviour of a few bad apples. Instead those bad apples should be given to the admins for them to deal with, OR someone coming alongside them, and building a relationship, so that your opinion can influence them, rather than just telling what they should and shouldn't do, when you have no realife, or ingame, authority over them.

Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.

Fletcher · 08-22-2009, 12:15 AM,

Hyoong, please don't mistake my intentions, while yes, I do probe at a way to improve things that involve change, it saves things from stagnating in a sense. But there is also the issue against me that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I admit that.

My opinion polls, are not public campaigns against anything, I start them, because I am genuinely curious about things, I ask questions a fair bit, its the way I am.

When it comes to selling ships, yes, it does urk me that there is a chance for faction military equipment to got to anyone with money. I have nothing against Zoner, Civilian, and possibly pirate class vessels, House military stuff gunboat and above, just urks me in the back of my brain a little.

In a sense in my mind, its powergaming. While, yes this is a game, people put effort and time into this game to RP in those vessels, and to have time in them. To sell these ships to people who just trade, trade, and trade some more that usually, lets face it traders don't always RP. There are those who do, don't get me wrong, its just the majority that I see, don't.

This is a touchy subject, but I have chosen my stance and stick with it. We all have our opinion on this, and I never expect people to always agree with me, that is the point of a discussion, nay a forum.

I never intend to cause ill will. I merely ask for discussions, that is the point of a forum in my eyes.

Hyoong, while your opinion of me doesn't bother me, I do say, that I never try to cause trouble unless I say I am. I just ask for a discussion or a banter on these rather controversial topics.

"Oh chuffing blimey, another day, another person being whiney!"
Fletcher's Feedback and Stories Thread

Colonel Z.e.r.o. · (This post was last modified: 08-22-2009, 12:34 AM by Colonel Z.e.r.o..)

I say let em do it. It's just their responsibility to keep it and it's reputation in check. However it will cause some confusion with the very stiff RPers and rule lawyers. I had to fish out 2 million credits to some indie BHer (just to make him shut up) right in front of Rostock doing missions to boost up my regular BH rep to get an ID that for some reason had a Zoner guard rep/ID, and I was 2 missions away for getting enough rep.

Nathan's Log || The "Real Story" of Lenox Casper

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