bombers (discussion only)

[Friday]

The whole imbalance comes down to one simple fact:

2. Buff Fighters. The bomber pilots still seem to hate this idea, but tough luck, something needs to change.

My plan would be to restrict fighters to class 9 guns only, but make bombers ONLY able to use class 10 guns. That way we can keep class 10 gun balance like it is now (600-700 M/S projectile speed, high damage, low refire), and rebalance fighter-specific guns (class 9's, primarily) to have much higher projectile speed and refire rate.

If we gave fighters the ability to use 1000m/s or so projectile speed guns, they would have a much easier time killing bombers in an acceptable amount of time. The other side effect this has is making fighter vs fighter battles shorter, so we dont end up with hour-long furballs every time an event is planned.

/signed - and I am a bomber pilot!

It is the weapon and not the ship. Doing this allows fighter escorts of all types to be more effective.

It means that fighters escorting caps are more effective.

It means that fighters escorting transports are more effective.

It means that fighters escorting bombers are more effective.

Though really bombers dont need a specialised gun slot. Even if they used regular fighter guns - the most bomber vs. fighter kills are scored using the SNAC or by jousting.

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[JakeSG]

So your solution to this is quite simple. Everyone should have a cap.8 and that's that?

Really now , that's a very unrealistic argument. Someone mentioned that a bomber is killed instantly from a salvo of primary turrets. I'm going to say that it doesn't work , even if the bomber lacks a skilled pilot , a complete salvo doesn't kill him , because the turrets themselves cannot hit such a small target , all at once. Some of them simply pass by the bomber , but yes , they do deal significant damage , when they hit.

I believe I said if. The entirity of the discussions were theoretical. And I mentioned turrents instakill a bomber. If their shield's down, and they're unlucky enough for the server to record all hits, boom they go, no time to regen mid-salvo. True story. Happened to me eight hours ago, whilst fighting a Mako with a Cap 8, mind.

The second problem is that , unlike Battleships and Battle cruisers , bombers live a "double life" without sacrificing anything , meaning that they are good against the capital ship and the fighter classes at the same time , without the need of a different load out and what not. Capitals don't have that option , either you go the anti-capital ship way , which you should , or you load your ship with ridiculous weapons , which are highly un-effective and try to act as a large fly swatter. Some people will say that you can go for a mixed load out , but all who've tried know that doing that means that your ships can't handle both capitals and bombers.

So buff the speed of primary/defense turrets, or add maybe one or two slots without touching their generator. Of course, then you'd have to raise the strafe of the Caps to account for the Cap vs Cap changes, then you'll be raising the speed of SNAC's to account for that, and then the fighters will be whining more. See, balance is fiddly. When the answer is simply 'skill', oft it is best to spend your time practicing rather than picking holes in each others arguments, because unless certain members of the Dev team grace the topic with their presence, nothing is ever done.

Edit - The Cap 8 Mako was using nothing but Defense Turrets, so I'll have to concede the mixed loadout point.

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For the Core.

[Camtheman Of Freelancer4Ever]

I suppose my capital ship point defense topic them ages ago got capital ship point defense weapons buffed by "grace of mods?" No. You create such a fuster that they have to come, which is what we did, and they listened. However, I use a mixed loadout on my Juggernaut, and I still can kill a cap 8 mako (it was in a battle simulation) and he was Apocalypse_Now. What does that say about your theory? The specific class name just says what the ship is BEST against. It does not condem you to loadout your ship one way or another. Ive got eleven primaries and two mortars, by the way.

[JakeSG]

Apocalypse Now uses only Defense turrets, and was in fact the one I was referring to, which I'm fairly sure are pretty much useless against other caps. As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure I really understood what you were saying or what it was aimed at. The only thoughts I have is that perhaps you misinterpreted something I said.

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For the Core.

[Camtheman Of Freelancer4Ever]

I was responding to Eternal, mostly

Refire-Rate:= 2.00 Shots per second
Power-Usage: 10,500.00
Projectile-Speed: 800
Needed Hardpoint: hp_turret_special_10

LifeTime: 3,200 Range
Hull-Damage: 4,200 per second
Shield-Damage: 2,100 per second

That is the stats of the Rhienland BS Defense Turret. It is actually very well against caps, 4200 is a very high damage rate for such little energy.

[JakeSG]

Ah, that makes much more sense. Appologies, I thought you were responding to me.

From what I've seen, while the turrets do high damage they're still inferior to a combo of Mortars/Pulses/Razors. I'm not a cap pilot myself, so I'm not sure, but that's pretty much what I've come to believe watching capships duke it out.

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For the Core.

[Camtheman Of Freelancer4Ever]

Pulses seem inefficent in my Juggernauts case. I can regen while firing all eleven primaries, so much so that by the time the battle progesses, I can fire a fifth and or sixth mortar.

[Tenacity]

Ah, that makes much more sense. Appologies, I thought you were responding to me.

From what I've seen, while the turrets do high damage they're still inferior to a combo of Mortars/Pulses/Razors. I'm not a cap pilot myself, so I'm not sure, but that's pretty much what I've come to believe watching capships duke it out.

This is something I've been struggling with since 4.85 first released. I still cannot decide whether or not it's better to go with 16 primaries and 2 light mortars, or a combination of pulses, mortars, and primaries. I've almost spent more money changing and testing loadouts than I did on the ship itself, and I still cant decide on a setup I like =(

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[Eternal]

JakeSG - Now , I'm going to disregard the post you made about "skill" and the fact that , the way you put it , everyone who complains about something which is not so well balanced , lacks it.

What I meant to say with the "double life" post , was that bombers should sacrifice as well , like every other ship class in Discovery does. The term "bomber" , does the work for the balance team , because it say's exactly what the ship should do. It's not named "all around ship" , or "Swedish Knife" , it's named "Bomber".
There are many things which can be taken away from the class , all thanks to the simple fact that it has so many features. For instance - mines , guns , thruster , EK ability , shield and why not make the SNAC an actual projectile , one which people can CD. Some of the things can be removed from the bomber , making it more of a specialized ship , then an "all around" one.

3. Use less caps. - People who use caps as their primary ships hate this because it makes them feel less manly. Everybody else loves it because it means less imba fights.

My main ship is the "Aurora" , Osiris Battleship. I like using it , more then any other ship in the mod. Yes , truly it makes me very manly , strong and all mighty. Not only that , but I like "loling" and "lolwutting" in it , just to make people attack me and see how strong I am in it.

That may have been the type of post you would expect from someone who likes flying a Battleship more the anything else , but I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you. I fly the ship because my main characters role play is tied to it , my position in the faction is tied to it and because my in game RP is more enjoyable and calm when in it. However , I also have quite a few bombers which I fly only when they are needed , that's why I can say that they do need further balancing , because the ship itself doesn't fly like a bomber. I feel the same level of security when I fly it against a Cruiser and against a Fighter. Now that's not right. Compared to every other ship class , the bomber is the only ship you can do everything with and do it , almost , equally well.

When it comes to three bombers against a Battleship , with any form of weapon combination , cap.8 and even 2 fighters as an escort. It's not a matter of skill for the Battleship to survive , it's a matter of time before it dies. You see , "skill" is that which allows you to push your ship a little further beyond what it average performance is , fly it a little better. But "skill" is limited to the overall ability of the ship itself. Meaning that although I've flown my battleship for more then an year now , my skill level is not that different from someone flying a battleship for the third time. Bombers are very different in this manner , a bomber pilot who is also skillful can push his ship as far as winning against any other ship class in the mod in a 1v1 battle. A lot of people who've done that also brag about it , I've heard Sindroms say he took down a Lib. BC all by himself , I took down a RM Battleship with only another bomber and countless more , when it reality there isn't much to be proud about. The bomber can easily do that because it allows the pilot to reach a level of skill , which surpasses every other ship in the mod. Caps and other ships in general - can't do that , no matter how skillful you are. Get it now ?

EDIT:

I suppose my capital ship point defense topic them ages ago got capital ship point defense weapons buffed by "grace of mods?" No. You create such a fuster that they have to come, which is what we did, and they listened. However, I use a mixed loadout on my Juggernaut, and I still can kill a cap 8 mako (it was in a battle simulation) and he was Apocalypse_Now. What does that say about your theory? The specific class name just says what the ship is BEST against. It does not condem you to loadout your ship one way or another. Ive got eleven primaries and two mortars, by the way.

Since I just now realized this was directed towards me , I will reply.

Although I know you are pretty skillful in a Battleship , you should be aware of the fact that the Mako is currently and has been for quite some time , useless. The only thing good about it is it's superb design , but good looks don't make it more useful. The ship is deprived from meaning and idea , I have raised the topic about a complete makeover for it , but people decided to discard it , however that ship isn't the general topic of this discussion.

You killed a Mako with your mix loaded Jugg. , simply because you have 3x or so more armor and the Mako is forced to fight you from a close distance. There is no way it can win against a heavy Battleship , no way at all , no matter what tactic or weapons it uses.

However , if we take away the Mako from that scene and replace it with a RM BS / Legate / Osiris / Outcasts Dreadnought , do you still think you would have won with that mixed load out?

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[JakeSG]

A thought struck as another alternative for 'balancing' from your post. Raise the damage of pulse and other shieldbusting weapons, but also raise the shield strength of transports, gunboats, cruisers and battleships. At this point, once you grind down the shield it is effectively useless as a single SNAC will bring it back down and allow for the pilot's companions to unleash once more. However, this would then bring in balancing issues where small numbers are concerned. Perhaps lowering the regen value?

Bah. I stand by my point. Theoretical balancing is much too fiddly.

Edit - Very good! You've found a flaw in my argument, and taken a broad statement as a personal offense! Congratulations! You will find, however, that in the case of gunboats and fighters, you can once more push the limits to extremes with your skill, and I believe far more so in a gunship/gunboat than a bomber. The satire in that statement was directed at Tenacity, as he said something similar directed at bomber jocks.

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For the Core.