Non-Clan Characters - It's not the first time

[Denelo]

ooc: -agrees with Tank-

RM is A Rheinland Military faction, not THE WHOLE Rheinland Military. Kvasir has as much right to RP RH Military (as long as it stays within RP) as RM does. And as much right to demand cargo etc. in the RH house systems. The same things goes for all factions. If someone made a Xenos clan for example, and that clan declared war on IMG (that would be out of RP, but anyways...), does that mean that Xenos already around (Doom/prospector for example) would have to start attacking BSG and other IMG ships? I didn't think so...

Oh btw, if it were all about the clan, I'd call it Freeclancer. Which makes it sound like cancer, which is never a good thing.

Freecancer? Free Cancer? I wouldn't buy cancer if you payed me.

[Dab]

Also Mal, you can't restrict what a character does if its not in your PC faction. A KNF-tagged/IDd ships does not have to follow your orders, unless in your home system. For example, if I wanted to take my Kusari Destroyer into Bretonia and shoot up the SF, you can't stop me. Thats perfectly reasonable and expected reaction from a KNF ship. You can't impose your faction's 'understandings' and 'agreements' with other factions on the heads of characters not in your PC faction. Heck, KNF could go to war with the SA, without Liberty and Kusari at war. Just because your at war, that doesn't mean KNF-tagged/IDd ships have to help you.

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[Malaclypse 666]

Well also Mal, the one thing that was never brought up into discussion was. I was never going to attack the SF for two reasons. 1( I had no and will get no infernos or battlerazors as it is my attempt to mimic NPC KNF.

To be honest, Tank, I don't remember much of the encounter. I think we both decided after tempers had flared, that it was best to cease the conversation. Had I been aware of the above facts, I think my own questions about what was going on would have been less heated. I think you prove my point here about communications. Hopefully, we can both get better at it when playing the same "side".

2( I was not in the mood to fight in a large engagement and don't to fight my own private crusade.

I do remember a comment about not being in the mood for my crapola or somesuch, heh; so, there were other circumstances. I may have been on a downhill slope myself that day. Well, we may be able to satisfy with some smaller engagements/crusades now. At the time, we were attempting to rebuild the KNF after the rather abrupt loss of its leaders and a large number of the original members. Thus, we weren't really inclined nor able to enter any large battles ourselves.

However the whole point of this is...there should always be the individual's right to RP no matter what. Factions/clans are secondary because Freelancer is Freelancer not Freeclanlancer.

This is indeed true. The individual has the right to look Factions over, to study the forums and the Factions' statust and rules before deciding to join. But, once that person has joined a particular Faction, there is the obligation to its other members to support that Faction by following its "rules of the RP road."

the individual RPing as a Lane Hacker has a right to enter Vespucci but not a right to preen around with an HF tag while not being a part of the clan. See? I can RP with my KND aslong as I do not say I represent [KNF]. Because frankly I don't.

This is where it gets sticky, and I believe the reason that the topic was created: to explore just what responsiblilities the "non-Faction" yet "NPC Faction-aligned" player has to play within the boundaries set either by existing Faction policies, or by the "mechanical" limits set the NPC faction's behaviors. I seem to get the imression that you would rather not be bothered by the former, yet you defend and support the latter. Further discussion/clarification would be helpful.

Now I oppose that there is no war between [KNF] [SF] because it's about bloody time that two lawful factions duked it out instead of me the lone pirate and all the other pirates attacking them..

Never said we weren't at war, mate. I reviewed my own post carefully on this one. Again, you couldn't be expected to know that there were negotiations allowing KNF some "breathing room" while we rebuilt. However, you could have asked why, or what or current stance was, etc. You could also have come helped fend off the wily Prospector, or helped protect traders along that bloody Honshu milk run; which kept our folk busy most days. Again, better communications could have made it more fun for all.

Yes, it's Freelancer. And if you follow pretty well the ID, general history, and mores of the NPC faction you've decided to emulate, you're not likely to get flamed, ganged up on in-game, or sent to the corner three times without money, weps or (ahem) ship.. However, as you stated, being a Clan/Faction leader yourself, it is necessary to have some control over the direction your Faction is going, which can even include "retiring" someone who just doesn't get it, as we had to with Wobbly/Wasabi. That too, is part of Freelancer. The individual makes to choice to "enlist". Your KND character did not "enlist" with "KNF,Inc" per se; but has enlisted with "Vanilla KNF". That is why we are having this discussion. Where does one end, and the other begin, and how should and do they interact. The excercise may bring consensus, so that misunderstandings can be avoided in future. That was my original reason for posting, and still is.

The Fool - Shoushou, KNF.

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[Dab]

Mal, you didn't listen to a word I said. Perhaps you'd better, as I explain pretty clearly the relationship between the PC faction and those aligned with the NPC faction.

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[Kane]

The problem here is that the RM basicly -are- the NPC faction. The only reason one would want to play RM without joining the player faction is to get a battleship. That, dear friends, is utter crud. No, I will not apologise. It is crud. The Rheinland battleship has the most turrets and the best armor sure, but have you ever looked at it? It's ugly as sin and a downright pig to fly!

It is hard, if not impossible, to tell where the RM ends, and the RM NPCs begin. -We- are running Rheinland, -we- are making the rules, and it is -we- who have always been like this. Two, two and a half years, of it being like this. I can't stop people from buying the battleship (Although I'm not fond of it), but when you take our ships -and- our tags... Things get a little more fuzzy.

It doesn't help that the person in question was being nasty to us, the legitimate faction in charge of Rheinland. You will note, I didn't say Branschwig or New Berlin, I said Rheinland. Just think about it for a second.

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This is the real true story of rock and roll; it was not about anything more then, how to live your life, as a gangster, in sartorial splendor, and turning the world into a place where normality would never return again...- Malcolm McLaren

[Malaclypse 666]

Also Mal, you can't restrict what a character does if its not in your PC faction. A KNF-tagged/IDd ships does not have to follow your orders, unless in your home system. For example, if I wanted to take my Kusari Destroyer into Bretonia and shoot up the SF, you can't stop me. Thats perfectly reasonable and expected reaction from a KNF ship. You can't impose your faction's 'understandings' and 'agreements' with other factions on the heads of characters not in your PC faction. Heck, KNF could go to war with the SA, without Liberty and Kusari at war. Just because your at war, that doesn't mean KNF-tagged/IDd ships have to help you.

You're right, right, and right, Dab. You posted while I was still considering my response to TT.. didn't mean to neglect you.

We (KNF) can't stop you at all if you decide to shoot up Cambridge. You are not bound by "KNF, Inc." policies and procedures. If you did so, I expect that SF command would realize that you were not acting as a representive of our House PC faction, and would respond accordingly. He/they would also realize that you were acting independently of our Faction, and would probably not "rag" on us for your actions. Good enough.

However, in the interests of RP, and perhaps of that illusive old saw "common courtesy", you might also note that KNF was not currently assaulting SF in direct frontal engagements on home worlds; and take that into account when planning your own RP as a Kusari NPC-aligned vessel. We have plenty to shoot at in the Taus. We have neighbors to the north who might decide to come calling. We have traders to protect, both Pc and NPC. And we'd probably be happy as Thud to include you in any of those ventures, and welcome the help.

I hope you'll concur that factions playing as the four major Houses (SA/KNF/SF/RM) have a somewhat unique responsibility to act within the bounds set by the game mechanics, while still trying to inject a unique flavor into the game's RP. I could cite examples of both successes and failures along these lines; but you've been here longer than I have, and probably know the history of Discovery as well or better than I.

Let me propose a scenario to you which might show why these major House factions have to be a bit more concerned about the actions of non-faction-yet NPC-aligned players.

Let's say, for instance, that I create a character.. let's call her "Chaogirl_Dis". She decides that she'd like to help protect traders in Omicron Theta; that she'd like to hang out in the bar in say, Omicron 74. She'd like to be friends with the Outcasts and GoR, yet still not have to shoot at Corsairs or Bounty Hunters. She decides that in order to do so that she'd like to get a Zoner ID and emulate her heroes, the Asgard Warriors.

One day, at the height of her "lunar cycle", she gets a bit cranky and decides she likes the pickings of an innocent trader who happens to be in, say, Sigma 19. She blows the trader up, and hauls home the bling. Now.. that trader may also decide to get cranky, call the AW, and raise a stink about this person, who seems to look suspiciously like a member of the AW from all outward appearances. (Maybe she flies an Eagle, and screams "Wotan!" or "Odin!" or "For the Glory of Asgard!" as she attacks..

Maybe she even has a tag, something like.. [AmW], ..Amazon Warriors, or somesuch..) I know, it's farfetched. (Chaogirl_Dis actually sports a [~V~] tag...), but if it happened.. wouldn't it concern you just a smidge, even though the char is perfectly within its right to RP as it chooses, just like Tank ventured? Wouldn't you be a bit afraid of misunderstandings, and of having a black mark on AW's record, even though Dis is not an AW member atall, atall?

That's life in the Houses. That's why I'd like to see an open discussion continue on the matter. That's why I'm willing to say "you're right, Dab, but..."

Thanks,
Mal

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[Dab]

Mal, I never said the house PC factions couldn't be worried about those not one of their members, but that doesn't mean you can restrict them.

To use your example, if there was a Zoner-tagged/IDd ship such as that, and if that happened, and then we got blamed/complained to, we would simply go out stating they are not a member of the AW, acted independently and without the AW's input. They might put a black mark on the Zoners, but that has to be dealt with through diplomacy. Not stating a person can't be part of that NPC faction because you don't want to worry about it. Called freedom, in Freelancer. The game made so you can do exactly this.

[~V~] is a Zoner faction, we don't worry about you. We know if you do something bad, and even if we get blamed for it, we can solve the issue diplomatically, and there is no legal right or real backing for someone to harbor ill-feelings with us about it.

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[onca]

One of the problems is, and I know I had this one for a long time before I "got it", is this. It is damn hard to keep your rep at "Freelancer" level.

Ok suppose you're a noob and you make a new char. Right off the bat lawfuls start as green and unlawfuls are generally red, so to make money your natural reaction is to to jobs for lawfuls killing pirates. Before you know it *bam* you have a Navy tag.

But to be a true Freelancer you should have affiliation with no one. So you have to work "against" the lawfuls to both eliminate your tag, and improve your rep with unlawfuls. And so goes the see-saw tips back and forth.

Of course we know how the balancing act goes, by experience. But many new players have no idea how all this mumbo-jumbo works. Result, we get the ridiculous situations outlined above. We also know the problem is not limited to those playing Freelancers. Example: my Corsair char has killed so many BHG's in Gamma he is now *green* with Outcasts! Can you believe it? Does this mean I should be docking at Malta.... of course not. Because I know better.

Unfortunately this is all an inherent flaw (or "feature") in FL, one which is compounded by the artificial addition of our multiplayer clans. O well. The only real solution is edu-ma-cation.

[fwolf]

The problem here is that the RM basicly -are- the NPC faction. The only reason one would want to play RM without joining the player faction is to get a battleship.

So, you are saying people join the npc faction just to get the battleship?

Thats the worst battleship in the game. I already flow it when I was playing on BK. It stuck everywhere. I remember of trying to pass with it in Bering asteroid fields, and I got crazy trying to move it out of there. Its a horrible ship. Also 18 turrets consumes more energy. I sold it, never again.

Now, for the npc faction, I disagree. I have asked for a application to both Virus and Malaclypse, and was refused. Now I have two lawfuls fighters, who were initially in the police, and now are in the military, and no, I dont need that horrible battleship, nor even I think in buying the kusari one. The reason for a rheinland lawful character was for use the phantom and later the wrath, and see that green blasters. There was some screenshots of a engagement against the SCRA and that was cool. The reason for a kusari lawful character was to fight in Tau 31. I dont care if Nadir's fleet dont want it.

[Malaclypse 666]

It'll get quieter now....

...everyone's off scrambling for the new beta....

......... shhh......

....here the pretty birds...

Ok... now..

@Dab. I've agreed Goddess knows how many times now that I can't restrict a non-Faction member. Never tried to say we could in this thread. My spine is strained from bending over backwards to be accommodating, reasonable, friendly, and engaging. Please, don't hit me with any more one-liners about my inability to comprehend the language.. please! I will however be delighted to wait while you review what "I" wrote. Heh.

@Tank. You're responsible! You made me think! Little twit! (Thanks, TT.. a reason for everything, I suppose.. heh).

@ F Wolf. Wup? Was? Refresh my memory, sir. Was it KNF? ELF? FSFP? [~V~]...? I have so many old and new noses to wear. Which nose were you wearing at the time?

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