How to make Discovery better?

[barrenwzste]

*Sigh* Once more into the breach....

First and foremost, joining a faction is a requirement to playing on the discovery server. You must choose and join one and then mount the proper id for one. Factions are what define what roles we play. This game is about, and always will be about, your faction and it's relations with the other factions in the game. Rant against that all you want, it is the truth.

Now, having chosen your faction, you are to play the role of a member of that faction. That means you fly the ships, use the weapons, stay within the systems, and enact the philosophies, mores, and actions of said faction. To do otherwise is to be ooc. You can have special circumstance role play, but it is just that. A special circumstance. For example, as a special circumstance, you could be allowed through anothers territory to visit "Family". This is fine, so long as you don't also special circumstance a new ship, routes, and philosophy. If you change that much of the faction role play, you are no longer of that faction, and consequently, ooc.

Also, many ships declare rarity and difficulty, as well as roleplay within thier discriptions. This means that your character should not have a stable completely of these ships. One, yes. Three or more and you are again, ooc. This includes capital ships. Only a few are supposed to have them, therefore, if all you do is run around in capital ships, you are ooc.

Player factions place controls on all these aspects. They restrict certain ships, require that you not enter certain systems, set down laws and regulations that if you break, you are punished for. With members of your faction, as well as allied and enemy factions, watching and reporting to your superiors. If you violate the role of your faction, you are punished, and if the violation is bad enough, or often enough, you are removed from the faction.

Independants have no such checks and balances. They have no superiors that can remove them from thier faction, no brothers/sisters watching and correcting them. They decide how many special circumstances they have and how many restricted or rare ships they can fly. I could go on, but in short, they are not regulated, and most do not regulate themselves. And this is what has lead to the problems we are having. The ooc violations have gotten to a point that the actual role players are loosing interest and leaving. That is why the original thread was posted. To try to find ways to curb the ooc violations and get people playing the actual roles, again.

There are only so many ways to fix this problem, and all of them place some kind of restrictions on the people committing the violations. If you give the player factions special bonuses to encourage player involvement, then the Independants have to be restricted from having them. Period. Or, you could simply limit thier ability to do and have things that are already in the game, so that only the player factions have access to them. There is also the posibillity of player faction controlled sanctions placed on those who commit to many ooc violations, the bounties were a good step in this direction.

Regardless, what this kind of thing is saying is that the days of making up your own faction and disregarding the actual factions and faction roles are gone. And, I for one, am heartened by this. It is not right to let some get away with violating the rules simply because they don't like them. I have said this before, I will say it again. The way to help Discovery is to follow the rules and role play. Anything less and the comunity will die out.

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"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer

An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.

[Shryke]

First and foremost, joining a faction is a requirement to playing on the discovery server. You must choose and join one and then mount the proper id for one. Factions are what define what roles we play. This game is about, and always will be about, your faction and it's relations with the other factions in the game. Rant against that all you want, it is the truth.

Freelancers, independent traders, mercenaries, independent miners, civilians, smugglers, slavers, generic pirates, that's eight off the top of my head that don't put you in a faction. The rest of your post is irrelevant because the rest is based on your false assessment. And what if I started my own faction (like I did with the LRF)? Am I still penalized because it isn't official?

If you want to make official factions more appealing, giving them inherent gameplay advantages is not the way to do it. Your idea of player factions giving out sanctions is so wide open for abuse I almost died laughing. That is something that should always exclusively fall into the hands of the admins, not someone that is angry at a lolwutter who is probably new and needs a polite talk to learn the rules instead of being slapped silly by the system.

Just because you're official it doesn't make you any better than me.

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[barrenwzste]

Freelancers, independent traders, mercenaries, independent miners, civilians, smugglers, slavers, generic pirates, that's eight off the top of my head that don't put you in a faction.

- Shryke

Wrong, those are all factions. They have faction ID's, faction rules and limits, faction philosophies and mores. They aren't part of the larger factions, and allow more freedoms in some ways and less in others, but they are still factions.

And what if I started my own faction (like I did with the LRF)? Am I still penalized because it isn't official?

Ok, you want to start your own pirate faction, that's not a problem. First pick the larger faction into which they fit, probably pirate. Then develop rules, guidlines, mores, and territories that define the character of the new faction while not violating the role play of the larger faction in which they fit. Then you can either play the new pirates with a few friends, or, try to gain enough members and a deep enough story line that the community is willing to accept it as an official player faction. But untill you become an official player faction, yes, you are still independants.

Your idea of player factions giving out sanctions is so wide open for abuse I almost died laughing.

- Shryke

All systems are open to abuse. For example, right now the npc faction system is being abused. What you do is establish checks and balances to prevent that abuse. The player factions already have a system of checks and balances in place that would prevent abuse.

That is something that should always exclusively fall into the hands of the admins, not someone that is angry at a lolwutter who is probably new and needs a polite talk to learn the rules instead of being slapped silly by the system.

- Shryke

First, it will never be exclusively in the hands of admins. In the case of the discovery community, our power as a community is somewhat limited. In the game, if we do not like you, do not like your role play, we can personally sanction you by simply ignoring you. Also, player factions police themselves. If your actions are innapropriate your player faction will punish you accordingly. The factions are not abusing thier players, they aren't going to abuse the independants they have to sanction either. If they do, they will be quickly ganged up on by the other factions and sanctioned themselves. As I said, the system of checks and balances for the player factions is already in effect.

Second, I see more official faction memebers reaching out to help people than I see independants. In fact, it is a part of many of the official factions rules. Members are to help guide new players and new members in developing thier role-playing skills as well as thier game knowledge base. It is a perk of being part of that factions community, as well as a service that makes the members feel good about thier own role within the game. Most lolwutters are independants, most players that take them aside and say, "You can't do that, you'll get banned." are faction members.

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"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer

An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.

[n00bl3t]

- Shryke

Wrong, those are all factions. They have faction ID's, faction rules and limits, faction philosophies and mores. They aren't part of the larger factions, and allow more freedoms in some ways and less in others, but they are still factions.


All systems are open to abuse. For example, right now the npc faction system is being abused. What you do is establish checks and balances to prevent that abuse. The player factions already have a system of checks and balances in place that would prevent abuse.

- Shryke

First, it will never be exclusively in the hands of admins. In the case of the discovery community, our power as a community is somewhat limited. In the game, if we do not like you, do not like your role play, we can personally sanction you by simply ignoring you. Also, player factions police themselves. If your actions are innapropriate your player faction will punish you accordingly. The factions are not abusing thier players, they aren't going to abuse the independants they have to sanction either. If they do, they will be quickly ganged up on by the other factions and sanctioned themselves. As I said, the system of checks and balances for the player factions is already in effect.

Second, I see more official faction memebers reaching out to help people than I see independants. In fact, it is a part of many of the official factions rules. Members are to help guide new players and new members in developing thier role-playing skills as well as thier game knowledge base. It is a perk of being part of that factions community, as well as a service that makes the members feel good about thier own role within the game. Most lolwutters are independants, most players that take them aside and say, "You can't do that, you'll get banned." are faction members.

My civilian ID makes me part of the civilian faction. My Mercenary ID makes me part of the Mercenary faction. Fail?

Yes, checks and balances. They are called the server rules.

Yes, there are further checks and balances because factions already have the power to deal with independents and those powers are effective enough.

You see everything? Right. *Facepalm.*


Now, a generic statement, can someone list out the situations which the faction cannot deal with in the current situation?

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[Camtheman Of Freelancer4Ever]

I just want to say, I will not stand for forcing independents to be anything other than independent, faction membership IS a choice and will always remain so.

I don't want official factions to have more power, I want there to be a reward for them doing what we ask of them, corporeal rewards, shiny things. Something that says thank you for the hard work they are expected to put in by us, the Admins.

Independents are an integral part of this server, where factions toe the NPC line, independents add spice and diversity to Discovery and they should be protected, sure the idiots need punting, but let's not be tarring all independents as idiots, eh?

RoS, LN, OPG, LR all of these factions and more have accepted rank amateurs into their ranks to help these folks improve their game and attitude. Because someone has to. But if they don't feel the love for a faction they won't join simple as. There's a reason I've never played a Gaian, I just don't like them.

So if you want to help Discovery, then do so by education and information, running to us every time a newbie does something wrong or demanding that we hunt down and destroy all indies isn't the solution.

Del, I love you for two reasons. That quote and helping me with those very smart IMG being annoying at FP11. You're great.

This is exactly my stance on the subject.
in essence, /signed.

[farmerman]

While there's all sorts of arguing about specifics I'm seeing in this part of the thread, it would seem to be the overall solution is, in theory, pretty straightforward.

The Official Factions want a way to deal with (what they see as) stupid independents who are spitting in the face of established RP situations and generally giving them a headache while the Independents want a way to deal with (what they see as) stupid factions who are stifling their ability to RP and causing them all manner of problems.

So it comes down to: how can we deal with people going against the grain because they're ignoring other people and how to deal with the people not willing to work with people logically going in another direction? Instead of arguing about specifics improvements or negatives anyway.

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Faction info links: Samura Heavy Industries : LWB : Watchers

[barrenwzste]

Nooblet,

There are only two IDs in the game that are not faction IDs, and both of them are prepatory IDs. First, the civilian. This ID is basically a flashing light that says, "I'm a noob, don't shoot!" It's only purpose is to allow the player to prepare for joining one of the factions. Second, the recruit. This ID tells the other players, "Yes, I know my equipment and diplomatics don't mach my tag, I'm fixing that as fast as I can." It's only purpose is to allow established players to change thier faction.

The "generic" IDs are still faction IDs. First, lets look at the definition of faction. A faction is a group of people who express a shared belief or opinion different from people who are not part of that group. When you fly with the Mercenary ID, you are associating yourself with all other mercenaries. You are a group of pilots who:

Can trade and escort Traders
Can fulfill lawful and unlawful bounty contracts
Cannot pirate, but can provide security services for pirates who are pirating if paid to do so. Mercenaries can only fire on traders or smugglers in self-defense or if the trader or smuggler fires on or is bountied by the mercenary's employer
Cannot demand contraband unless specified in employer's bounty
Cannot use any transports with more than 3,800 cargo
Can only fly Fighters, Freighters, Transports, and Gunboats.

These limitations, though looser than many, tell you about the beliefs of the faction. Mercenaries, as a whole, don't care who paid for the hit. Mercenaries disdain pirating, but they have no compunction about protecting pirates. Mercenaries aren't lawmen, so they don't care if somebody else is carrying contraband. I could go on, but I'm sure everybody gets the picture. A generic faction is still a faction, with it's own specific characteristics.

Now lets talk about the rules. If you find a player violating role play, you can snap a screen shot and send it to the Administration. First, the administrators are busy people. They have plenty to do, and that means that there is going to be, either a considerable time lag, or they will have to take time off from other important tasks. Second, there are hundreds of us, and only a handful of them. Keeping track of repeat offenders is going to be difficult enough because of sheer numbers, let alone name changes. In the mean time the violator is still busy violating and disrupting the play of the players who are following the rules. In the offical factions, this kind of problem is often resolved in a day, sometimes even a matter of hours. With Independants I have seen the process drawn out to a week and the average is a few days. A lot of damage is done in that time that could be prevented.

As for the power official factions have over independants, the leaders can give independants minor orders. If the independant declines the order, the faction leaders may role play thier unhappiness, and a court-martial. If the independant still declines the order the leaders of the official faction can order the independants death. If the Independant continues to decline the order then they can request that the Independant be changed to hostile with thier faction. The only one of these that puts any real pressure on the Independant is changing it to hostile, and once again we have the process to go through while he/she continues violating.

You ask what kind of situations the official factions can't handle with thier current power. They cannot deal with players who don't care if they anger the factions. The punishments, excepting the last, are so light as to be rediculous. So, those who are breaking cannon, and know it, do so with the full knowledge and acceptance of what the consequences are. If this happens, then the consequences are not astringent enough.

The traders who dock nine or ten times on restricted bases because they can make three times as much as at the accepted bases. The pirates who pirate a dozen traders in restricted areas because there is more traffic there. The player that spends most of thier time in restricted space. These players are violating thier roles and know that, generally speaking, they are only going to get told to stop. A few hours, a day maybe, and they are back at it again. This is the kind of thing the factions can't handle, because they don't have the power to put a real stop to it. This is the kind of widespread ooc violations that official factions can efficiently police amongst thier own players, because of thier power to levy stricter rules and punishments, but cannot among independant players.

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"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer

An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.

[Shryke]

Since you and I have a completely different opinion on factions and what they are, I don't see the point in continuing to argue about semantics. You seem to believe there is absolutely no such thing as an independent, and that by some extension of your weird logic all Freelancers belong to a faction (oxymoron) or that Mercenaries are part of the Mercenaries faction. Man, I'd like to meet the poor bastard in charge of that faction. Oh wait there isn't one, because there is no mercenary faction. There's the Mandalorians, but you can't just pop a mercenary ID and be one. Why? Because theyare a faction.

Sharing ideals doesn't make you a faction. In that regard Corsairs and Outcasts should be best of friends since they both pirate and smuggle.

Actually I'll bite. I'm bored.

These limitations, though looser than many, tell you about the beliefs of the faction. Mercenaries, as a whole, don't care who paid for the hit. Mercenaries disdain pirating, but they have no compunction about protecting pirates. Mercenaries aren't lawmen, so they don't care if somebody else is carrying contraband. I could go on, but I'm sure everybody gets the picture. A generic faction is still a faction, with it's own specific characteristics

Look above. Never mind I'll repost it.

Sharing ideals doesn't make you a faction. In that regard Corsairs and Outcasts should be best of friends since they both pirate and smuggle.

Now lets talk about the rules. If you find a player violating role play, you can snap a screen shot and send it to the Administration. First, the administrators are busy people. They have plenty to do, and that means that there is going to be, either a considerable time lag, or they will have to take time off from other important tasks. Second, there are hundreds of us, and only a handful of them. Keeping track of repeat offenders is going to be difficult enough because of sheer numbers, let alone name changes. In the mean time the violator is still busy violating and disrupting the play of the players who are following the rules. In the offical factions, this kind of problem is often resolved in a day, sometimes even a matter of hours. With Independants I have seen the process drawn out to a week and the average is a few days. A lot of damage is done in that time that could be prevented.

Actually it's very easy for admins to keep track of things like this, including name changes. Hence you see repeat offenders mentioned in sanction reports.

As for the power official factions have over independants, the leaders can give independants minor orders. If the independant declines the order, the faction leaders may role play thier unhappiness, and a court-martial. If the independant still declines the order the leaders of the official faction can order the independants death. If the Independant continues to decline the order then they can request that the Independant be changed to hostile with thier faction. The only one of these that puts any real pressure on the Independant is changing it to hostile, and once again we have the process to go through while he/she continues violating.

Independents are under no obligation to follow orders from someone else if they don't want to. Being official doesn't give you the right to boss others around.

You ask what kind of situations the official factions can't handle with thier current power. They cannot deal with players who don't care if they anger the factions. The punishments, excepting the last, are so light as to be rediculous. So, those who are breaking cannon, and know it, do so with the full knowledge and acceptance of what the consequences are. If this happens, then the consequences are not astringent enough.

Sure they can. Use your imagination instead of going for the ban stick. You sound like a six year old.

he traders who dock nine or ten times on restricted bases because they can make three times as much as at the accepted bases. The pirates who pirate a dozen traders in restricted areas because there is more traffic there. The player that spends most of thier time in restricted space. These players are violating thier roles and know that, generally speaking, they are only going to get told to stop. A few hours, a day maybe, and they are back at it again. This is the kind of thing the factions can't handle, because they don't have the power to put a real stop to it. This is the kind of widespread ooc violations that official factions can efficiently police amongst thier own players, because of thier power to levy stricter rules and punishments, but cannot among independant players.

Of course they can police their own members, they are in the same faction, and it ends there as it rightfully should. If someone is breaking the rules, that's what sanctions are for. You want official factions to have admin-like powers.

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[pipboy]

I can't believe you are all arguing with Strom over the word faction.... Very sad, let me help you out here.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faction

For those that don't want to click the link:

Main Entry: faction
Pronunciation: \ˈfak-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin faction-, factio act of making, faction — more at fashion
Date: 1509
1 : a party or group (as within a government) that is often contentious or self-seeking : clique
2 : party spirit especially when marked by dissension

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Technically faction probably isn't the right word to use to start with, however:

All people using a Mercenary ID are part of the Mercenary faction wherever they live. Mercs in Liberty are part of the Merc faction within Liberty. Groups within that faction include factions of the Merc faction (MM for example). The same goes for every ID in game just like Strom already pointed out.

For example:

The Bounty Hunters Guild is, in itself, a faction. The BHG| is a faction within the Bounty Hunters Guild.

The Hogosha, a faction within Kusari. The Black Dragon Society is a faction within the Hogosha.

The Liberty Rogues, a faction in Liberty. The LR- is a faction within the Liberty Rogues.

The Outcasts, a faction in the Borderworlds. The RoS is a faction of the Outcasts.

The Liberty Navy is a faction of the Liberty government. The [LN] is a faction of the Liberty Navy.

As it stands now no official faction represents their entire faction as a whole (this is how indies exist), so each official faction is a faction of the larger faction. If I lost you, sorry. Use a dictionary and figure it out for yourself.

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[barrenwzste]

Nooblet,

I gave you the definition of faction and yet you still persist denying it. Nowhere in the definition of the word is there anything that says that a faction has to have a leader. It is amazing how you ignore what you don't want to be true. Corsairs and Outcasts aren't in the same faction, because they have differing ideals. Just because they agree on some things doesn't make them one and the same. It's the differences that define them. Sharing ideals that are different from others ideals is the very definition of a faction. Look it up.

Yes, it is actually a rule, if a faction leader gives you an order and you are and independant of that faction, you do have to carry out the order.

RIGHT 2) Official factions have authority over players of the same NPC affiliation, as long as RP justification is provided. This authority applies in forums and in-game, and applies to player faction diplomacy, and strategic and tactical direction. However, exercise of that authority, on the forums and in game, is restricted to official faction members with the rank of the official faction leader and one rank below him/her. The authority may be exercised through the use of in-game in-RP orders, which, if not obeyed, can result in in-game in-RP consequences (arrest, court martial, and even "lethal" force in extreme circumstances). Official Factions cannot, under any cicrumstances, require another player to follow non-canon RP if that player doesn't want to.

The fact that independants disregard the rules just illustrates my points. The majority of the Independants are not following the rules of thier factions, let alone the rest of the game. The factions cannot be expected to follow the rules if the Independants do not have to. And they certainly can't be said to have the power to stop violators if an established player like yourself doesn't even know the rules he is breaking.

Also, I have never once stated that offenders should be banned. In fact, my suggestions have all been in game elements. I want to give the factions the ability to enforce the rules they are supposed to be able to now. I want Independants limited because it is far to easy for the system to be abused as it stands. I want rewards for official factions to encourage participation, role play, and fair play.

And finally, I illustrate my points with civil language, providing the proof of my statements, and ask that those disobeying the rules be punished for thier violations. And despite this, you call me a six year old. I am going to lower my standards for just a few moments, now. I am going to point out your flaws.

1: You deny the facts of the matter. [Definitions of words and clearly stated rules.]
2: You fail to provide proof of your arguements.
3: You fail to do research on the matter.
4: You take quotes out of context, ignoring what you do not want to aknowledge.

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"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer

An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.