Realism that serves nothing but bothering people (and realism itself) is just a huge drag. The ideas seem to be aimed at annoying people to the point of giving up on capital ships (and thus reducing their numbers).
Fuel consumption - bad idea (and one discussed a few times already).
Ammo-based everything - bad idea (and not even very realistic in FL world).
Huge costs on death - maybe slightly larger than currently, but nothing monstrous. Definitely not "prohibitive".
Note that I am not really a cap ship pilot. I just think that this is not the way to go.
Then what would you recommend to fix the issue with ridiculous amount of lolcaps?
' Wrote:Threads regulary pop up by diffrent people about same subject recently, becouse there is a problem which is not solved, and diffrent peeps get pissed by it. People like you do not help to solve it either. So yeah, really, +1 from the core.
The problem which is not solved is not the problem being presented, but the problem of perception within the OP's post. (And, funnily enough, by the person I am quoting.)
Fixing this perception does not occur through nerfing capital ships. It lies with understanding the fact that there are ships out there which are more dangerous than a BS.
' Wrote::/ same subject pops up because the subject happens to be a rather big problem with how the game operates. Since the closest thing many are doing to fixing the problem is denying it without any constructive input, threads like these will continue to pop up until the problem is properly addressed or until the problem is properly addressed.
Read above. The problem is not with capital ships, it is with your perception.
However, since you seem to the solutions-man, go search for the other 9000+ topics on the same subject, and start addressing the points raised as to why this should not happen. (Since, quite frankly, I get tired of re-typing what I have typed months ago, and months ago before that.)
' Wrote:No.
Please.
Stop.
Use the search engine.
I say we ban all fighters and bombers.
Why?
Because they are more dangerous to 90% of the server than any bloody battleship could be.
That is a simple fact that cannot be denied. Based solely on logic and well, our good ol stats.
Just quit with the cap bashing please, it's like a bloody disease around here.
' Wrote:The problem which is not solved is not the problem being presented, but the problem of perception within the OP's post. (And, funnily enough, by the person I am quoting.)
Fixing this perception does not occur through nerfing capital ships. It lies with understanding the fact that there are ships out there which are more dangerous than a BS.
Read above. The problem is not with capital ships, it is with your perception.
However, since you seem to the solutions-man, go search for the other 9000+ topics on the same subject, and start addressing the points raised as to why this should not happen. (Since, quite frankly, I get tired of re-typing what I have typed months ago, and months ago before that.)
Echo. (Now replacing "/signed".)
It's not a question of what is dangerous and what is not, it's a question of sense. It's an RP game - which means everything should go along within the confines of the roleplay. Does it make the least bit of rp sense that there are so many capital ships? Does it make sense that it's gotten to the point that the ridiculous scenario of cap ships going about interdicting small fighters has become an actual issue?
The purpose of what I'm recommending is not to nerf capital ships, it's to ensure that they're to be used within the confines of the RP, which is what was originally attempted before the Devs decided that it was easier to just make cap ships hilariously underpowered instead of setting gameplay mechanics which would promote cap ship use the way it was meant to be. Hell, what I want is for these gameplay mechanics to be put in place so that cap ships won't have to be so damn useless.
This isn't cap ship bashing, this is lolcap bashing.
Denial, claiming that the problem is all in our heads, isn't the least bit constructive - perhaps you believe that every single one of what you claimed was 9000+ topics was the result of some mass delusion or some mistaken perception, then whatever. If you really do think the status quo is God, then more power to ya - but it doesn't change the fact that the current system is the reason why capships are so useless in the first place, nor does it change the fact that it makes no sense at all.
The "solution" to capspam is bomber spam. Capital ships are -the worst- ship choice in this mod if you're looking to pvp, especially if you're looking to randomly pvp people that you just happen to stumble across while you're in-game.
They're big, they're slow, they have inefficient weapons when it comes to dealing with small craft, the majority of capital ship pilots do not fly with escort of any kind (except other capships). Bomberswarms will completely annihilate the lolwutting capfleets everyone constantly complains about, we do it day in and day out with the keepers/wilde. Two to three bombers and some support fighters can take out nearly anything the enemy can throw at you.
I used to fly nothing but capships on disco, throughout most of 4.84 and early 4.85. I flew gunboats, cruisers, and battlecruisers... I hated flying anything smaller. Then, like getting hit in the face with a brick, I realized "oh, hey, every time I try to take my big bad ship against something small, I get my arse handed to me, I wonder why that is?"
I've cut back to only one capship now, my order carrier, and I havent flown that thing into a pvp situation in more than 4 months now.
' Wrote:It's not a question of what is dangerous and what is not, it's a question of sense. It's an RP game - which means everything should go along within the confines of the roleplay. Does it make the least bit of rp sense that there are so many capital ships? Does it make sense that it's gotten to the point that the ridiculous scenario of cap ships going about interdicting small fighters has become an actual issue?
The purpose of what I'm recommending is not to nerf capital ships, it's to ensure that they're to be used within the confines of the RP, which is what was originally attempted before the Devs decided that it was easier to just make cap ships hilariously underpowered instead of setting gameplay mechanics which would promote cap ship use the way it was meant to be. Hell, what I want is for these gameplay mechanics to be put in place so that cap ships won't have to be so damn useless.
This isn't cap ship bashing, this is lolcap bashing.
Denial, claiming that the problem is all in our heads, isn't the least bit constructive - perhaps you believe that every single one of what you claimed was 9000+ topics was the result of some mass delusion or some mistaken perception, then whatever. If you really do think the status quo is God, then more power to ya - but it doesn't change the fact that the current system is the reason why capships are so useless in the first place, nor does it change the fact that it makes no sense at all.
We come here to play and have fun, within a limited scope of RP. (Yes, limited.)
If everything was RP, it would not be as fun as it is.
Unfortunately, every single "buff" so far to capital ships has "nerfed" it, in one way or another.
You accuse me of denial of the supposed issue but in doing so, the hypocrisy of denying the fact that something is wrong with your perception does not magically disappear.
No, most of them began with independent bashing of some sort, and slowly permuted from there. However, your attempt to flip delusion is a point of humour. Also, if you think I am against upsetting the status quo you are obviously quite ignorant. (I could go into how, but eh, no point.)
You want to increase cost to fly a capital ship, increase the cost to shoot, and decrease the range of them. It is called selective discrimination. Not quite obvious, but there. Yes, there are a few independents that can afford to shell out for your "prohibitively expensive" mutations proposal, but at the end of the day, the sheer number of players, able to trade for a faction, will ensure more factionalised BS. (Ten points for noticing the pun.)
Adding to that, you want to add more sanctionable offences to the game. We have enough rules as it is, and furthermore, so far, the Administrators have been trying to cut them down.
I also like your effort at addressing the counter-points in the other 9000+ threads on this issue. Well done.
n00blet, no-one is asking to nerf them. Rather limit their usage in order to have chance to boost them significantly (that's called balance?). Alltought, some people just afraid to loose ability to use caps.
Quote: Read above. The problem is not with capital ships, it is with your perception.
I can say that it's your preception which is wrong. Therefor we need to find objective truth, which is one and undenyable. View of the fact do not changes the fact.
"my right, my right, my right" is all I read from your posts, more likely an egoist who wish to do as he please. If right comes without responasbility it becomes a privilege. Which is totaly not right. If there is more people who do not take responsability and just uses "right" thing, something needs to be done to protect the ones who takes responasbility. So please stop victimizing yourself.
I'm not saying that his applies to all, but it's current tendency of thigs are turning here. And this tenedency causes people to complain becouse they feel unfairly treated.
Please, lets stick to the topic at hand. No more hurling insults or snide comments.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, if your opinion is just a flat no, please end it at that instead of wasting valuable space on repeated 'no's mixed with other unnecessary tidbits about people. We're here to discuss ideas, not the people that shared them.
Back on topic.
It seems that the concept of the independant Capital ship was not supposed to be so prevalent in an ideal setting. From what I can see by the ridiculous vulnerabilities of the Capital ship in its present form, the Capital ship is meant to be sortied with other player support. As I understand, Capital ships were not always this weak - and were nerfed in an attempt to force cooperation of Capital ships with support ships.
What I am merely suggesting is that the combat power of the Cap ship be restored to what it should be, and that the required modifications that would bind Capital ships to the requirement of support be of a non-combat nature. This is all that I wish to change.
The methods by which I suggest this change to occur are up for debate. Any input which can help this idea be realized is greatly appreciated. I welcome your input that the inclusion of more sanctionable rules is highly undesirable. As the addition of sanctionable rules are merely a short cut to something which can hopefully be hard coded into the gaming mechanics, through programing - any suggestions on methods to do so would be very welcome.
' Wrote:n00blet, no-one is asking to nerf them. Rather limit their usage in order to have chance to boost them significantly (that's called balance?). Alltought, some people just afraid to loose ability to use caps.
I can say that it's your preception which is wrong. Therefor we need to find objective truth, which is one and undenyable. View of the fact do not changes the fact.
"my right, my right, my right" is all I read from your posts, more likely an egoist who wish to do as he please. If right comes without responasbility it becomes a privilege. Which is totaly not right. If there is more people who do not take responsability and just uses "right" thing, something needs to be done to protect the ones who takes responasbility. So please stop victimizing yourself.
I'm not saying that his applies to all, but it's current tendency of thigs are turning here. And this tenedency causes people to complain becouse they feel unfairly treated.
I explained how this is a "nerf".
There is no absolute frame of reference. View of the fact, determines what the fact is.
Sure, find where I mention my "rights" in my posts, in this thread. (Obviously, since I do what I want and disrupt the server so much, I have so many sanctions against me. Of course, I have zero. Please, explain this.)
It does come with responsibility. Server rules, which include FR2 and FR5. (Derp.)
You will find that the breakdown of vessels on the server has roughly 5-10% of them as caps, which makes perfect sense. For every 1 cap there's 10 fighters/bombers, though far more in actuality, percentages here are a bit skewed due to the player limit. Capital ships ARE rare, you just notice them far more than other ships. If you go by the numbers of ALL characters, not just the ones on the server at any time, then that percentage changes greatly. The ratio of capital ships in relation to fighters etc drops a lot.
So essentially here's the actual facts for you, based on statistics gathered.
- There are more fighters/bombers that could be considered 'lol's than there are 'lolcaps'.
- These often cause far more damage and stress to people than any kind of capital ship
- Making capital ships hard to buy will only hurt the 99% of capital users that aren't idiots.
- Making capital ships stronger in return will only encourage 'lolcaps' as you call them. The power of a capital ship is the drive for most people to get one. Increasing that is a bad plan.
- This community is biased against Capital ships in general as it is the 'Cool thing' to insult. The word 'lolcaps' just proves that.
So, lets increase the price of fighters and bombers till no one can buy them. After all they cause even more problems than any kind of capital ship.
Oh wait, that would harm me, the oh so fantastic player that is infinitely superior to all the 'lolcaps' out there. Why should I be punished for a tiny minority being idiots?
I shouldn't.
' Wrote:You will find that the breakdown of vessels on the server has roughly 5-10% of them as caps, which makes perfect sense. For every 1 cap there's 10 fighters/bombers, though far more in actuality, percentages here are a bit skewed due to the player limit. Capital ships ARE rare, you just notice them far more than other ships. If you go by the numbers of ALL characters, not just the ones on the server at any time, then that percentage changes greatly. The ratio of capital ships in relation to fighters etc drops a lot.
So essentially here's the actual facts for you, based on statistics gathered.
- There are more fighters/bombers that could be considered 'lol's than there are 'lolcaps'.
- These often cause far more damage and stress to people than any kind of capital ship
- Making capital ships hard to buy will only hurt the 99% of capital users that aren't idiots.
- Making capital ships stronger in return will only encourage 'lolcaps' as you call them. The power of a capital ship is the drive for most people to get one. Increasing that is a bad plan.
- This community is biased against Capital ships in general as it is the 'Cool thing' to insult. The word 'lolcaps' just proves that.
So, lets increase the price of fighters and bombers till no one can buy them. After all they cause even more problems than any kind of capital ship.
Oh wait, that would harm me, the oh so fantastic player that is infinitely superior to all the 'lolcaps' out there. Why should I be punished for a tiny minority being idiots?
I shouldn't.
Please, just stop while your behind.
The point isnt about the numerical percentage of how many cap ships there are, the point is about how many people have them - how easy it is to get them - and how easy it is to abuse them. I could care less about how many more fighters/bombers that could be considered more 'lol' than lolcaps. That is irrelevant to this discussion. Sure, it makes no sense that a couple of bombers can level a cap ship with relative ease. Hell I've taken out a liberty cruiser by myself, and no one was impressed.
The bottom line is... Capital ships are broken. Not broken as in uber, but broken as in ridiculously weaker than they should be.
Since you have only addressed the part about Cap ships getting a buff, and not the part about making it less available to... what shall I call them if not lolcaps because you seem to have taken a particular disliking to the word... roflcap-tors? fine. I digress. You either haven't read the suggestions in its entirety (something that is to be expected since the kneejerk no brigade seems to have showed up) or you wish to disregard the portions that invalidate one of your points.
Regardless, far more than your projected 1% of cap ship users are lolca- i mean roflcap-tors. Sure, one can say that a significant portion of capital ship users are responsible and good rp-ers, but it only takes one to ruin a good thing. Hell there's way more than one - just check the sanction board. It's way too common for some trader that doesn't even speak english to grind trade routes into oblivion, scrape up enough money to get... say... a liberty assault carrier - and wreck havoc. Usually this involves something like "PIRat U die Nao!" or something like that, but you get the picture. Keep in mind that this is an RP server... and cap ships are supposed to be oodles of RP served with a side of RP, drenched in a coating of RP sauce and garnished with a small clove of RP (since well... it's not for combat, as the nerfs have kindly reminded us, nor is it for trading, as their cargo space is clearly not suited for it, nor for is it for exploration, as they're slow and unwieldy - so what's left is that they're there to look at, fulfill a role in rp, and perhaps, if Freud was right, serve as a way for us to get back at our fathers for some reason or another - or to compensate for certain shortcomings, but that is a conversation best saved for the flood :/)
Perhaps you're going to ignore that wall of text - hell, it looks like a pain to read even for me- so I'll boil it down for you in points:
-Cap ships are ridiculously underpowered for combat - this was to discourage those that would not use it for RP.
-Perhaps it's a worthwhile venture to figure out a system that won't make them so hilariously underpowered?
-This thread is looking for a method of cap ship balance that is unlike the current method to nerf them into hilarious uselessness.
-It's an RP server and cap ships are meant for RP, perhaps we should add in features that expand on the gameplay surrounding capship rp?
-Maybe making capships harder to get and harder to maintain will ensure that those that actually do get cap ships are all good rp-ers?
-Adding in mechanics that make cap ships dependent on other ships in a tangible game depth expanding way (they already are dependent on other ships for escort since they're doomed against anything smaller than a gunboat) will force people to cooperate with one another rather than merely making it stupid to not cooperate with others (since people are more inclined to do stupid things than illegal things, though both tend to hold much in common).
Well that's about it. If you've got any suggestions on how to expand upon this, do share - if all you're going to spout is the tired argument of "lol no, it's not broken and ur only bashing cap ships cause it's the cool thing to do" then you're welcome to do so - though it's preferable if you did it elsewhere.
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