There is no absolute frame of reference. View of the fact, determines what the fact is.
Sure, find where I mention my "rights" in my posts, in this thread. (Obviously, since I do what I want and disrupt the server so much, I have so many sanctions against me. Of course, I have zero. Please, explain this.)
It does come with responsibility. Server rules, which include FR2 and FR5. (Derp.)
Please stop accusing me of victimising myself.
Guys =_= both of you are contributing members of this community, so please don't question this aspect in each other. The purpose of this thread is for like minded people to think of different and better ways to add to the game - those that disagree with the our fundamental idea that the cap ship system is broken are welcome to dispute it, but please do so elsewhere as this is not the thread for that.
There is no place in this thread for attacking other people, please attack the ideas presented if you must (though please add in some constructive contribution on how to better the idea if you do)
Quote:Regardless, far more than your projected 1% of cap ship users are lolca- i mean roflcap-tors. Sure, one can say that a significant portion of capital ship users are responsible and good rp-ers, but it only takes one to ruin a good thing. Hell there's way more than one - just check the sanction board. It's way too common for some trader that doesn't even speak english to grind trade routes into oblivion, scrape up enough money to get... say... a liberty assault carrier - and wreck havoc. Usually this involves something like "PIRat U die Nao!" or something like that, but you get the picture. Keep in mind that this is an RP server... and cap ships are supposed to be oodles of RP served with a side of RP, drenched in a coating of RP sauce and garnished with a small clove of RP (since well... it's not for combat, as the nerfs have kindly reminded us, nor is it for trading, as their cargo space is clearly not suited for it, nor for is it for exploration, as they're slow and unwieldy - so what's left is that they're there to look at, fulfill a role in rp, and perhaps, if Freud was right, serve as a way for us to get back at our fathers for some reason or another - or to compensate for certain shortcomings, but that is a conversation best saved for the flood :/)
The capital ships currently cannot wreck havoc, that is the idea.
Increasing the price of capital ships and making them generally cost more will only push away "good rp-ers" as they cannot afford to keep up.
The current system for capitals IS a solution to the overwhelming horde's of idiotic capitals swarming our Discoverse. However it is within reason, which is sensible.
On a final note:
Quote:The point isnt about the numerical percentage of how many cap ships there are, the point is about how many people have them - how easy it is to get them - and how easy it is to abuse them.
It's not about the number of capital ships..it's about the number of capital ships that people have..I can see the massive difference in that sentence.
Bombers and fighters are FAR easier to get than capital ships and are abused far, far more.
Why not make them ultra expensive and cost money to maintain?
Large amounts that is, to stop idiots abusing them.
' Wrote:The point isnt about the numerical percentage of how many cap ships there are, the point is about how many people have them - how easy it is to get them - and how easy it is to abuse them. I could care less about how many more fighters/bombers that could be considered more 'lol' than lolcaps. That is irrelevant to this discussion. Sure, it makes no sense that a couple of bombers can level a cap ship with relative ease. Hell I've taken out a liberty cruiser by myself, and no one was impressed.
The bottom line is... Capital ships are broken. Not broken as in uber, but broken as in ridiculously weaker than they should be.
Since you have only addressed the part about Cap ships getting a buff, and not the part about making it less available to... what shall I call them if not lolcaps because you seem to have taken a particular disliking to the word... roflcap-tors? fine. I digress. You either haven't read the suggestions in its entirety (something that is to be expected since the kneejerk no brigade seems to have showed up) or you wish to disregard the portions that invalidate one of your points.
Regardless, far more than your projected 1% of cap ship users are lolca- i mean roflcap-tors. Sure, one can say that a significant portion of capital ship users are responsible and good rp-ers, but it only takes one to ruin a good thing. Hell there's way more than one - just check the sanction board. It's way too common for some trader that doesn't even speak english to grind trade routes into oblivion, scrape up enough money to get... say... a liberty assault carrier - and wreck havoc. Usually this involves something like "PIRat U die Nao!" or something like that, but you get the picture. Keep in mind that this is an RP server... and cap ships are supposed to be oodles of RP served with a side of RP, drenched in a coating of RP sauce and garnished with a small clove of RP (since well... it's not for combat, as the nerfs have kindly reminded us, nor is it for trading, as their cargo space is clearly not suited for it, nor for is it for exploration, as they're slow and unwieldy - so what's left is that they're there to look at, fulfill a role in rp, and perhaps, if Freud was right, serve as a way for us to get back at our fathers for some reason or another - or to compensate for certain shortcomings, but that is a conversation best saved for the flood :/)
Perhaps you're going to ignore that wall of text - hell, it looks like a pain to read even for me- so I'll boil it down for you in points:
-Cap ships are ridiculously underpowered for combat - this was to discourage those that would not use it for RP.
-Perhaps it's a worthwhile venture to figure out a system that won't make them so hilariously underpowered?
-This thread is looking for a method of cap ship balance that is unlike the current method to nerf them into hilarious uselessness.
-It's an RP server and cap ships are meant for RP, perhaps we should add in features that expand on the gameplay surrounding capship rp?
-Maybe making capships harder to get and harder to maintain will ensure that those that actually do get cap ships are all good rp-ers?
-Adding in mechanics that make cap ships dependent on other ships in a tangible game depth expanding way (they already are dependent on other ships for escort since they're doomed against anything smaller than a gunboat) will force people to cooperate with one another rather than merely making it stupid to not cooperate with others (since people are more inclined to do stupid things than illegal things, though both tend to hold much in common).
Well that's about it. If you've got any suggestions on how to expand upon this, do share - if all you're going to spout is the tired argument of "lol no, it's not broken and ur only bashing cap ships cause it's the cool thing to do" then you're welcome to do so - though it's preferable if you did it elsewhere.
You talk about how easy it is to get capital ships and how easy it is to abuse them. Then, you go on saying that capital ships are weak and underpowered. You cannot "abuse" something weak and underpowered. (Similarly, you cannot have your cake, and eat it too.)
Your change of abusive naming, is irrelevant. The feeling behind the name, the ignorance and the whole way you look at how it is presented, is the same. So, eh.
I said it earlier. This is an RP server. It is an RP server because we RP to have fun. If we do not have fun, we do not play. Therefore, the lowest common denominator is fun, not RP. The limitations you propose, limit fun.
By making capital ships harder to get, you limit the fun. As it stands, some of the ships already require an SRP. Adding to that, abused capital ships can get FR5'd. Of course, this is ignoring the FR2 which allows you to order around independent capital ships anyway. Yet, you still want more controls?
There does not need to be more controls. There are enough already.
There is a reason why a BS goes down to 3-4 bombers. We simply cannot afford to have it take ten bombers to bring down a BS because that would mean eleven slots taken up by just one encounter on the server. (The only thing that needs a change in capital ships, is cruisers. They need more anti-fighter capability. Wait, no, they need anti-fighter capability before they can get more of it. However, I digress.)
' Wrote:You talk about how easy it is to get capital ships and how easy it is to abuse them. Then, you go on saying that capital ships are weak and underpowered. You cannot "abuse" something weak and underpowered. (Similarly, you cannot have your cake, and eat it too.)
It is quite possible to abuse them. and it is quite certain that they are abused. To abuse by definition means to misuse. It is quite clear that capital ships are being used in such a way they were not meant to be. The way it was meant to be, capital ships were supposed to be hard to get and rich with RP (moreso than the average fighter). Instead, there are many who procure these capital ships with relative ease and fly around in them as they would a fighter - engaging in very little RP, and going about fighting things that make little RP sense for a capital ship to fight (IE interdicting small ships). If you believe that this is not a problem (which you are certainly welcome to) then perhaps this venue is not one which you should be frequenting as this thread was meant to be a discussion of how and not why. It is a waste of both my time and yours to continue this back and forth of nitpicking semantics and I not address any point, henceforth, that continues to do so.
' Wrote:I said it earlier. This is an RP server. It is an RP server because we RP to have fun. If we do not have fun, we do not play. Therefore, the lowest common denominator is fun, not RP. The limitations you propose, limit fun.
You say that rules limit fun, I say adding game mechanics which increase the depth of the game increases fun.
I say that properly done, rules do not limit fun, but for the purpose of argument, let's say they do.
Consider this: the abuse of a capital ship (as it affords vastly greater firepower than any other ship class) has the greater potential for one to ruin the fun of others compared to that of an abused fighter. To maximize fun on the predominantly fighter populated server, is it not logical to limit the potential for an abused capital ship to ruin fun at the smaller cost of limiting the potential fun of a minority?
' Wrote:As it stands, some of the ships already require an SRP. Adding to that, abused capital ships can get FR5'd. Of course, this is ignoring the FR2 which allows you to order around independent capital ships anyway. Yet, you still want more controls?
There does not need to be more controls. There are enough already.
The act of joining a faction implies that you submit to the authority of the faction you're in (personally, I generally don't like official factions since my experiences involving them tend to involve little ships telling off big ships). You are more than welcome to join a decentrallized faction like the freelancers if you wish to avoid the trouble. As for the rights of official factions, I believe them to be a necessary evil to prevent players from stepping too far out of line. However, the faction rights (both unfortunately and thankfully) are not used enough to be either abusive or useful.
' Wrote:There is a reason why a BS goes down to 3-4 bombers. We simply cannot afford to have it take ten bombers to bring down a BS because that would mean eleven slots taken up by just one encounter on the server. (The only thing that needs a change in capital ships, is cruisers. They need more anti-fighter capability. Wait, no, they need anti-fighter capability before they can get more of it. However, I digress.)
Yes, this is due to the inherent incompatibility of fighters and capital ships on a small scale. This is obvious as a fighter (sans bomber) by itself cannot hope to scratch the paint off of a capital ship hull as a capital ship will be hard pressed to even keep its camera on the fighter.
If I had my way, there would be no need for any of these complications, and the smallest unit of player ships would be freighters and gunboats. In this, fighters would be nothing more than something NPCs spawned in and threw at you for the simple effect of cannon fodder. Combat in that game would have been massive capital ship battles involving actual fleets fighting one another.
Alas, fighters and capital ships ARE both part of this game, which has limited player capacity - and there is no chance for a proper ratio of capital ships to fighters to be realized. As this game favors fighters over capital ships, it is the capital ship which must be limited for the sake of conserving the resources of the server.
This proposal is meant to simultaneously limit the amount of capital ships in play to those with the connections necessary to, and to justify a massive boost to the capital ship's combat potency so that they aren't as weak as they are now. It's just one way to address the problem, hell I'd rather enjoy the implementation of the proposal to limit the distribution of fighter class ships as I love the capital ships in this game much more than any fighter - and I love to play as an independant capital ship (yes, I'm part of what my proposal deems as the problem, but hell - It's a way to fix things).
Honestly, as long as you keep talking about using money to deter lolcaps, it's not going to work. Money is not a good enough deterrent, they will simply silently tradegrind until they get enough money.
I am all for battleships being huge deathmachines capable of cutting swaths of destruction through the battlefield. Ideally it should take like two dozen bombers with fighter escort to even have a chance of downing a battleship. But alas.
If you want to do a quick mental fix, just think of a single player fighter as a whole squadron of NPC fighters. Same goes for bombers. Then the numbers work out about right.
I would advocate making capships impossible to get without the sponsorship of the relevant faction. But of course everyone would bitch and moan and it wouldn't be done. But it would work.
So the question becomes, how many of our loud whiny (on both sides) community members are we willing to ignore to fix this problem? If the number is zero, then the problem will never get fixed.
Eh, Hawkwings does have a point about the money.
Lolwuts always have more money than actual roleplayers... and caps being machines of destruction but needing a faction's sponsorship would be the optimal solution, past all of this.
' Wrote:Honestly, as long as you keep talking about using money to deter lolcaps, it's not going to work. Money is not a good enough deterrent, they will simply silently tradegrind until they get enough money.
I am all for battleships being huge deathmachines capable of cutting swaths of destruction through the battlefield. Ideally it should take like two dozen bombers with fighter escort to even have a chance of downing a battleship. But alas.
If you want to do a quick mental fix, just think of a single player fighter as a whole squadron of NPC fighters. Same goes for bombers. Then the numbers work out about right.
I would advocate making capships impossible to get without the sponsorship of the relevant faction. But of course everyone would bitch and moan and it wouldn't be done. But it would work.
So the question becomes, how many of our loud whiny (on both sides) community members are we willing to ignore to fix this problem? If the number is zero, then the problem will never get fixed.
That's what the proposal to add in ammunition and fuel is for, so that capital ships need both material and human resources to operate - official factions have both while a lolcap probably has only material.
Heh, yeah - most likely they won't fix anything, but here's to hoping.
' Wrote:How many bloody times, if you want realism, RP it so.
Right. No self respecting combatant is willing to cripple him/herself for the sake of RP if there is even one possible combatant that is not. Adding in extra realism rp which would most likely give you a severe tactical disadvantage will never happen unless everyone does it. If it does happen among mixed rp and non rp players, it won't happen well because A) not everyone is doing it and B) the guy crippling himself with RP is either stupid enough to cripple himself when others aren't and thus too stupid to pull off a good rp, or is the stuff of legend.
' Wrote:If you want to do a quick mental fix, just think of a single player fighter as a whole squadron of NPC fighters. Same goes for bombers. Then the numbers work out about right..
' Wrote:That's what the proposal to add in ammunition and fuel is for, so that capital ships need both material and human resources to operate - official factions have both while a lolcap probably has only material.
Ammo and fuel both amount in the end to the same thing: money. And then see my note about money.
' Wrote:T.T it's just not the same
*pats on head*
there there, it'll be alright...
Also, realism doesn't work if the game mechanics don't support it. You can RP your battleship launching fighters to defend against a bomber attack all you want, but that doesn't mean fighters will spawn next to you to defend you.
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