' Wrote:Ammo and fuel both amount in the end to the same thing: money. And then see my note about money.
Err... yeah, but for combat both fuel and ammo would have to be constantly replenished by supply crews or you'd have to constantly dock in the middle of fights to buy more ammo and fuel - which is not allowed by the rules
' Wrote:Oh, I get it, sorry, lack of comprehension on my part.
It's a kludge solution I feel. It might work, but it would also make life a lot harder for official faction caps.
Or maybe... have this limited ammo thing for indy caps, but give official faction caps unlimited ammo?
:/ i really don't like official factions so if it were up to me, i'd say no but it's not up to me so XD
Ideally, a game mechanic should be the same for everyone
Err no offense to you, of course - official factions in general are a pet peeve of mine. I'm sure you're a swell individual
' Wrote:It is quite possible to abuse them. and it is quite certain that they are abused. To abuse by definition means to misuse. It is quite clear that capital ships are being used in such a way they were not meant to be. The way it was meant to be, capital ships were supposed to be hard to get and rich with RP (moreso than the average fighter). Instead, there are many who procure these capital ships with relative ease and fly around in them as they would a fighter - engaging in very little RP, and going about fighting things that make little RP sense for a capital ship to fight (IE interdicting small ships). If you believe that this is not a problem (which you are certainly welcome to) then perhaps this venue is not one which you should be frequenting as this thread was meant to be a discussion of how and not why. It is a waste of both my time and yours to continue this back and forth of nitpicking semantics and I not address any point, henceforth, that continues to do so.
You say that rules limit fun, I say adding game mechanics which increase the depth of the game increases fun.
I say that properly done, rules do not limit fun, but for the purpose of argument, let's say they do.
Consider this: the abuse of a capital ship (as it affords vastly greater firepower than any other ship class) has the greater potential for one to ruin the fun of others compared to that of an abused fighter. To maximize fun on the predominantly fighter populated server, is it not logical to limit the potential for an abused capital ship to ruin fun at the smaller cost of limiting the potential fun of a minority?
The act of joining a faction implies that you submit to the authority of the faction you're in (personally, I generally don't like official factions since my experiences involving them tend to involve little ships telling off big ships). You are more than welcome to join a decentrallized faction like the freelancers if you wish to avoid the trouble. As for the rights of official factions, I believe them to be a necessary evil to prevent players from stepping too far out of line. However, the faction rights (both unfortunately and thankfully) are not used enough to be either abusive or useful.
Yes, this is due to the inherent incompatibility of fighters and capital ships on a small scale. This is obvious as a fighter (sans bomber) by itself cannot hope to scratch the paint off of a capital ship hull as a capital ship will be hard pressed to even keep its camera on the fighter.
If I had my way, there would be no need for any of these complications, and the smallest unit of player ships would be freighters and gunboats. In this, fighters would be nothing more than something NPCs spawned in and threw at you for the simple effect of cannon fodder. Combat in that game would have been massive capital ship battles involving actual fleets fighting one another.
Alas, fighters and capital ships ARE both part of this game, which has limited player capacity - and there is no chance for a proper ratio of capital ships to fighters to be realized. As this game favors fighters over capital ships, it is the capital ship which must be limited for the sake of conserving the resources of the server.
This proposal is meant to simultaneously limit the amount of capital ships in play to those with the connections necessary to, and to justify a massive boost to the capital ship's combat potency so that they aren't as weak as they are now. It's just one way to address the problem, hell I'd rather enjoy the implementation of the proposal to limit the distribution of fighter class ships as I love the capital ships in this game much more than any fighter - and I love to play as an independant capital ship (yes, I'm part of what my proposal deems as the problem, but hell - It's a way to fix things).
See, your whole post goes on about how there is abuse and it continues on that tack.
The point I was making is, there is no abuse which cannot be dealt with, with the rules, in the current situation. (Whether or not factions utilise the powers at their disposal is irrelevant.)
So, your whole point about controls, restrictions and so on, is, put quite frankly, is useless.
Expanding on my previous post, capital ships would either have to be limited to such a ridiculously low number, or the server made to withstand ridiculously high numbers of players, in order for capital ships to be buffed to the levels you are talking about. (Limiting them cuts down on fun for those who suddenly have to switch to fighters, and yes, this is anti-independent, because it sure is not going to be an official faction selling off their capital ships. If you can find a way to increase the player count on the server, please PM Cannon, but I doubt you can.)
Having said that, you go on about how a capital ship ruins several players' fun because of it's superior firepower. Again, simply, you are wrong. One, capital ship fire is slow, and it is almost impossible to hit fighters and bombers. Two, "lolbombers" love capital ships and they enjoy destroying it, this generates a lot of activity. (This part also makes me doubt the part where you say you love to play as an independent capital ship.)
If you love capital ships so much, start a thread like this questioning and implementing solutions for "lolbombers". Do it. Instead of questioning capital ships' unlimited ammunition, question how their SN is unlimited. Question how such a small craft can deliver such a destructive payload. Question how such a destructive craft is so cheap to manufacture. Question how their size allows them to fly forever without landing for fuel.
The reasoning behind giving these special privileges to official factions is because they are organized, spend effort to try to make the server a better community, and are able to be held accountable for their actions. Basically, they have more responsibility. And with this responsibility comes rewards that they earn. You may dislike official factions for one reason or another, but do you deny that they make the server a better place?
' Wrote:The reasoning behind giving these special privileges to official factions is because they are organized, spend effort to try to make the server a better community, and are able to be held accountable for their actions. Basically, they have more responsibility. And with this responsibility comes rewards that they earn. You may dislike official factions for one reason or another, but do you deny that they make the server a better place?
See, this sort of post reeks of the whole "independents do not do anything but sit around, lazing, eating chips, plotting ways to destroy Discovery" smell.
It also makes it seem that official factions have more rules than independents. (Which, to anyone having read the server rules, pretty clearly is not the case.)
Obviously, the discount on their system purchase, the Capital Armour VIII and the ability to order around independents is not enough. Better ships, better guns, and anything and everything else is what is wanted.
' Wrote:"roflcap-tors. " ... "and perhaps, if Freud was right, serve as a way for us to get back at our fathers for some reason or another - or to compensate for certain shortcomings"
First off I love you for both of those, I died. I also applaud you for dealing with the "no brigade" (Though I agree the topic has been covered, yes, but you never know when we might find solid gold from a silly idea)
' Wrote:Perhaps you're going to ignore that wall of text - hell, it looks like a pain to read even for me- so I'll boil it down for you in points:
After reading almost everything on this damn thread, and laughing at people's persistence, I'll add my two cents, because you asked for it.
Balance:
' Wrote:-Cap ships are ridiculously underpowered for combat - this was to discourage those that would not use it for RP.
This is an entire game balance issue, change one thing and the others surpass it. It seems as though Disco has been trying this since it started and they have a good balance here for the server's needs.
BUT
There is a problem that DOES need fixing. Changing the mechanics of the game to remedy this is preferred as throwing money at the problem (in this case charging an arm and a leg) never fixes it.
Fuel:
' Wrote:-It's an RP server and cap ships are meant for RP, perhaps we should add in features that expand on the gameplay surrounding capship rp?
-Maybe making capships harder to get and harder to maintain ...
-Adding in mechanics that make cap ships dependent on other ships ...
RP cargo is great. I don't care what anyone else says. If you bother to purchase all sorts of random necessities for your ship power to you (and me), then you obviously care about what other people see when they scan you; IE are thinking about other's experiences. So naturally I love the idea of a required "fuel" for capital ships, it adds to the ambiance. Mox fits the bill already, but it would need to be fixed purchase location wise.
The "fuel" idea is not exactly a money sink either if we don't make it one. It would be more of an RP/time requirement: If you're low on fuel, you're done. (Leads to great ambush/support craft opportunities) It is a matter of implementation though.
However, the ammo thing is a bit of a reach. One or the other will work and I think fuel works better with Vanilla/the universe.
I'm sure I'll think of more but that is what I've got.
' Wrote:See, your whole post goes on about how there is abuse and it continues on that tack.
The point I was making is, there is no abuse which cannot be dealt with, with the rules, in the current situation. (Whether or not factions utilise the powers at their disposal is irrelevant.)
So, your whole point about controls, restrictions and so on, is, put quite frankly, is useless.
Obviously not, as the abuses still continue to happen. If such rules exist, they're not fulfilling their role.
' Wrote:Expanding on my previous post, capital ships would either have to be limited to such a ridiculously low number, or the server made to withstand ridiculously high numbers of players, in order for capital ships to be buffed to the levels you are talking about. (Limiting them cuts down on fun for those who suddenly have to switch to fighters, and yes, this is anti-independent, because it sure is not going to be an official faction selling off their capital ships. If you can find a way to increase the player count on the server, please PM Cannon, but I doubt you can.)
So this is what this is all about - you don't want to part with your independent cap ship and so you want to shut down any and all suggestions that may jeopardize your indiecap. It's a valid reason, and it's quite understandable - it even explains why you seem to be willing to ignore the problems.
' Wrote:Having said that, you go on about how a capital ship ruins several players' fun because of it's superior firepower. Again, simply, you are wrong. One, capital ship fire is slow, and it is almost impossible to hit fighters
One fighter (non bomber) vs one cruiser. Unless the cruiser is a complete moron or the fighter is most likely going to lose. The fighter, at best has a chance for a stalemate until someone gets tired and leaves.
' Wrote:Two, "lolbombers" love capital ships and they enjoy destroying it, this generates a lot of activity. (This part also makes me doubt the part where you say you love to play as an independent capital ship.)
As I said, a game with such a limited player capacity that mixes fighters and capital ships has inherent issues with capital/fighter ship compatibility. I happened to suggest a fighter friendly proposal since the Freelancer engine was built for fighter class ships.
' Wrote:If you love capital ships so much, start a thread like this questioning and implementing solutions for "lolbombers". Do it. Instead of questioning capital ships' unlimited ammunition, question how their SN is unlimited. Question how such a small craft can deliver such a destructive payload. Question how such a destructive craft is so cheap to manufacture. Question how their size allows them to fly forever without landing for fuel.
That's an idea, but it's irrelevant to this discussion
' Wrote:Obviously not, as the abuses still continue to happen. If such rules exist, they're not fulfilling their role.
So this is what this is all about - you don't want to part with your independent cap ship and so you want to shut down any and all suggestions that may jeopardize your indiecap. It's a valid reason, and it's quite understandable - it even explains why you seem to be willing to ignore the problems.
One fighter (non bomber) vs one cruiser. Unless the cruiser is a complete moron or the fighter is most likely going to lose. The fighter, at best has a chance for a stalemate until someone gets tired and leaves.
As I said, a game with such a limited player capacity that mixes fighters and capital ships has inherent issues with capital/fighter ship compatibility. I happened to suggest a fighter friendly proposal since the Freelancer engine was built for fighter class ships.
That's an idea, but it's irrelevant to this discussion
They exist, but are not used. To get them used, perhaps either make reports to the relevant people, or STFU and stop asking for more rules and restrictions.
I make no secret of having a large amount of cruisers, almost every single cruiser anyone can buy. However, accusing me ignoring the non-existent problem is a good diversion from answering my post content. (Oh, and not all my capital ships are independents, but eh.)
So, you think it is in-RP for a fighter to fight a cruiser, one on one, instead of fleeing? Right. Please, let us come up with tangible situations. (However, yes, the fighter would win. Either by calling backup or the cruiser getting tired of consistently trying hit a target which it cannot hit.)
FL was also made for PVP, not RP. Perhaps get rid of RP too? *Facepalms.*
You made it relevant with your "I love caps too" statement. I suggested where your proposals of restrictions would be more appropriate.
Thanks Chase, this is exactly the type of feedback this thread was for.
' Wrote:This is an entire game balance issue, change one thing and the others surpass it. It seems as though Disco has been trying this since it started and they have a good balance here for the server's needs.
BUT
There is a problem that DOES need fixing. Changing the mechanics of the game to remedy this is preferred as throwing money at the problem (in this case charging an arm and a leg) never fixes it.
Yes - the game balance will be a huge issue. The goal would be to ensure that everything costs just enough material and fuss that the benefits of the superior firepower offered by a boosted capital ship (one that doesn't suck) is worth it. Too expensive and attention intensive and cap ships would be shelved forever (That's worse than the bad ending of Bioshock). Too little, and the problem is not solved at all (maybe only as bad as eating a live human fetus or a bunny rabbit).
' Wrote:RP cargo is great. I don't care what anyone else says. If you bother to purchase all sorts of random necessities for your ship power to you (and me), then you obviously care about what other people see when they scan you; IE are thinking about other's experiences. So naturally I love the idea of a required "fuel" for capital ships, it adds to the ambiance. Mox fits the bill already, but it would need to be fixed purchase location wise.
The "fuel" idea is not exactly a money sink either if we don't make it one. It would be more of an RP/time requirement: If you're low on fuel, you're done. (Leads to great ambush/support craft opportunities) It is a matter of implementation though.
The "fuel" idea is not exactly a money sink either if we don't make it one. It would be more of an RP/time requirement: If you're low on fuel, you're done. (Leads to great ambush/support craft opportunities) It is a matter of implementation though.
Yes - making distribution more common and with universal prices (but only at strategic locations) will both make immersion good, and add additional gameplay mechanics where those that ferry fuel will actually be useful. Universal implimentation would require several grades of fuel for each type of craft based on cargo size, make, and fuel economy.
' Wrote:However, the ammo thing is a bit of a reach. One or the other will work and I think fuel works better with Vanilla/the universe.
Hmm... The idea behind ammo was to make cap ships fuel efficient enough to get around where it needs to - but would require frequent restocking of ammo during engagements. However, this is still up for debate since mechanics should be as simple as possible.
' Wrote:I'm sure I'll think of more but that is what I've got.
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