Turret view ship steering

[Jinx]

well - my opinion about it is... if it works, its great.

i m not sure about the policy "if its used in another mod, we must not use it" - it depends on the availability of the piece of code. when its available - and enriches the gameplay... of course it should be used.

when another mod managed to introduce dx9 post effects to freelancer and an easy way to modify the skins of ships without much performance loss - we d use it, too. ( after all, we also use the GTA 3 sa enbseries mod )



about the balance... - freelancer knows fighters, there are small fighters ( LF ) and big fighters ( battleships ) - but all the same, they are fighters.

adding steering while flying boasts large ships - over small ships. - however, right now, small ships dominate the large ships for the follwing reasons:

- weapondamage in freelancer is excessivly high - a high grade of missed shots is calculated into the "dps"
- agility is very very great in disco - almost like a space version of counterstrike
- ships don t evade by steeering anymore, but only by strafing - but strafing is a method coming from 1st person shooters and not from simulations.

why is that relevant for the matter? - capital ships ( civilian and military ) suffer from the high damage of weapons, cause those weapons do not miss them. they simply cannot dodge sufficiently.

things would be different if:
- capital ships were invulnerable - but could only be disabled by destroying fighter sized subsystems ( but blunt shots vs. the hull wouldn t do anything )
- capital ships could be customized more in terms of how certain weapons fire - and how the autoaim works.

but still - they are kind of balanced with those flaws in mind. - so they benefit more from armour than fighters ( compared to the size and agility disadvantage, they gain a lot more armour )

when capital ships could steer in turret mode, they would gain a huge agility boast - which wouldn t affect weaponfire very much, but would affect the scourge of capital ships - the supernova - and to some extend the nova. - hence rendering bombers a lot more powerless.

to keep the balance, SNAC might need a speed boast, which would then affect the SNAC use vs. fighters again - which would then require a general rebalancing of the whole system.

yet - it might be worth it.... IF it works.

might be worth it - cause ... capital ships are of course MEANT to steer while in turret mode. - the current system just compensates for the inability to customize the engine.

---

Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Govedo13]

Jinx said it in the best possible way.Kudos!

---

€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[DarthCaedus]

well - my opinion about it is... if it works, its great.

It does. And it's simple change.

i m not sure about the policy "if its used in another mod, we must not use it" - it depends on the availability of the piece of code. when its available - and enriches the gameplay... of course it should be used.

I agree. And as long as I know other mods don't use it.

about the balance... - freelancer knows fighters, there are small fighters ( LF ) and big fighters ( battleships ) - but all the same, they are fighters.

Yeah, Frelancer was simply was designed for fighters, other views had just complementary purpose.

adding steering while flying boasts large ships - over small ships

As well, sitting ducks becomes worse against thruster capitals, and lighter capitals in their class become even better against heavier, both because inreased abilities to maintain distance.

- ships don t evade by steeering anymore, but only by strafing - but strafing is a method coming from 1st person shooters and not from simulations.

There are ways to steer and shoot even now. Rear view kiting and using autopilot (F2, F4) with turret view. Both are pretty limited and somewhat cumbersome to use but still they work.

but still - they are kind of balanced with those flaws in mind

Exactly.

when capital ships could steer in turret mode, they would gain a huge agility boast - which wouldn t affect weaponfire very much, but would affect the scourge of capital ships - the supernova - and to some extend the nova. - hence rendering bombers a lot more powerless.

Absolutely right. I don't know if you managed to see the first thread before it was made invisible, but there was some discussion there about this. And true, this is the most obvious change of balance which this advanced capital ships control makes. Simplest thing might be to just boost supernova damage and probably a little nova as well, but I think there is much more to it.

As I see it, the lighter capital - more it gets with this ability against foghters/bombers (simply because heavier capitals can't dodge as well and they can be more reliably snaced from greater distance), thus probably it makes heavier capitals worse than they are now. Pretty much the same when a lighter capital fights a heavier capital of the same class. Mainly because the lighter capital can keep maintaining distance on the verge of its turrets range, in which it has even more advantage. Indeed, as it is now, lighter capital can kite heavier capital using rear view and lighter capital is at advantage, but as long as heavier capital follows the lighter. If it decides not to, lighter capital faces necessity to turn around and loose heavier from view and even worse it can't maintain distance later keeping it the heavir ship view. This is changed greately with turret steering abilty, allowing this lighter to maintain roughly same distance and keep dealing more damage to the heavier capital at that distance.

On the other hand, it's not the case at closer ranges (whether the heavier managed to close the distance or in any other situation), where heavier capital still hits lighter capital even while the latter is more agile, and I think, at this distance better ability to control ships with turret steering might even benefit the heavier capital ship (especially if to up its armor). So as I see it this feature changes balance quite a lot. And yes, exactly because current balance was fine tuned with those flaws in mind.

to keep the balance, SNAC might need a speed boast, which would then affect the SNAC use vs. fighters again - which would then require a general rebalancing of the whole system.

Problem is, it would need to fine tune the whole system anyway. As for snac - I think incresing damage is better to counter reduced hits probabily than increasing speed, because it doesn't affect bomber vs fighter ot bomber and because it will not allow bombers to shoot snacs even from greater range than now from certain angles.

yet - it might be worth it.... IF it works.

might be worth it - cause ... capital ships are of course MEANT to steer while in turret mode. - the current system just compensates for the inability to customize the engine.

Exactly, probably because turret view was developed for freighters and only for defensive purposes while flying straight to the closest dock, and only against npcs. It's just wasn't designed for capital ships like the whole Freelancer control system.

Jinx said it in the best possible way.Kudos!

Same from me. Kudos Jinx.

[Friday]

Well, the overall tone of this thread is much better. It sounds like a proper development discussion .

I think this is a very intriguing way of controlling ships - even smaller vessels like freighters and smaller transports.

I think the potential to shake up the rather stale FL combat system is worth the effort to rebalance the game with respect to this new system.

---

[DarthCaedus]

The tone is the same as it was from the beginning of the first thread and this is how it was meant originally, without jumping to consequences.

Thing is, this change would do more than just debalance ship classes. It's conceptual change of ship combat involving capitals or other bigger ships, turning combat in less hit and run or stationary shooting to more maneuverable combat with more value of energy efficient weaponry over low refire with high damage, thus making heavy capital weapons more long range bombardment tools than means to release energy in a joustle.

In other words, capital ship would be less stationary weapon platforms, like they tend to be now in many cases. And in my opinion, it's only logical to have ship overall ability to maneuver on the battlefield controlled by the ship agility parameters without inefficiency of the ship control playing its part.

[Corsair]

I've advocated this many times.

But no, we're DISCOVERY! We're UNIQUE! We can't have nice things, because some other mod has them, even though the authors of those NICE THINGS said -anybody, any mod- could use them!

---

[Valinor]

I really would like to see this implemented, but it's also true that more testing will be necessary.

---

Official member of the Hessian Conspiracy.

Recruitment | Message Dump | Information center | Criminal database

[Friday]

I went and took a look at this on Open SP.

WOW!

It is tricky getting used to a different set of controls - but it brings a really fresh new feel to large ship combat.

Beyond this, any ship that is being pursued would draw some benefit from this mod. Here are my more specific comments after flying around for a bit:

1) whilst ships gain an defensive advantage in being able to turn and shoot at the same time - they run an increased risk of getting 'lost' in combat. It would be riskier using this type of combat whilst trying to make a dash for a safe docking port.

2) That being said, in a furball it would certainly increase the challenge of snub versus cap, and cap versus cap fights. Broadside firing looks simply fantastic, as does the ability to position your ship on its 'good side' to the enemy.

3) Ships with shadows in their firing arcs are still vulnerable - but attacking ships will have to work harder to stay in the enemy's shadow and avoid return fire.

4) Larger, slower ships (particularly BS) get less of an advantage with this type of mod - but they still stand to gain some benefit. A BS in particular can use this to change their vector of travel. At long range, changing vectors even slightly can cause SNACs to miss their target - whilst the BS can continue to fire on their enemies.

Attacking ships will have to get in closer to negate the BS ability to maneuver - thus exposing themselves to the BS return fire.

5) Using this mod with fighters isnt so effective - as using the keyboard to turn is nowhere near as precise as using the mouse. you can only tuen in one direction at a time - so no diagonal turning is possible!

In addition, the ability to turn in this way is aborted when your ship nears a vertical angle. You then have to reset it by tapping in and out of turret view before you can start turning again in turret mode. This 'freeze' in a fighter fight would be highly damaging, if not fatal!


In conclusion:

If it were implemented immediately - the ships that would benefit most are those with reasonable maneuvering and good turret coverage all around the ship.

All ships would gain some benefit from being able to turn whilst looking backwards or sideways.

I say it is worth the effort that may be needed in rebalancing.

---

[Curios]

So, what about with that to be implemented in mod?

---

[Schatten Research Facility]

So... verdict?