IMO Light fighters need weapons with higher projectile speeds (1000+) to become effective escorts against bombers. Give the entire shipclass a role to fill, nobody ever flies LF's other than for oddball reasons, and something needs to exist which can effectively put down bombers or keep them from killing capships when present.
Heavy Battleships aren't meant (inRP mostly) to destroy the little snub craft, their purpose is to kill the capital ship on the other side.
(Or Carriers, their REAL purpose is to stay out of the battle and send in fighters, which is hard to do with FL currently, though it CAN be RP'd pretty easily if wanted)
And/or stations maybe, too bad stations don't explode in FL, but, of course there must be -some- kind of anti-snub weaponry on a big bad battleship, which, the solaris and razors seem good enough to me, it should only make bombers on the edge and not be able to fire as comfortably (As Jinx said before), not slaughter anything that gets close, or else we could kiss snub craft goodbye. Battleship Anti-snub is good as it is
But, let's face it, 'balance' also includes the players using the ships.
-I've seen a fighter take down a gunboat by itself, I've seen it happen some few times too, (shifts eyes to Joe).
-I've also seen one gunboat slaughter 3 fighters and a bomber.
But, you can have other examples too, not just gunboats.
-An idiot with a siege cruiser cant kill a carrier.
-A pretty decent siege cruiser pilot can kill a carrier without even getting damaged.
Or, for the topic in hand.
-I've seen an osiris just destroy the living s*** out of BHG bombers with a razor and it's guns, (but, it's easy for an osiris to do that, because of it's thin frame, bombers have to get a bit closer to actually land a shot)
-I've also seen 2 pro bombers taking out a battleship, and 2 cruisers in a row.
So yeah, you also have to count the players in while balancing.
=As For Flaks=
They suck, no range whatsoever, they cant even reach the other side of your battleship most of the time, and you have to guess where the snub craft is headed to actually hit, I myself have killed some bombers with the flaks, though, I changed the flaks to missiles, much better, flaks are just a waste. Need to be buffed or something I dunno.
=As For Secondaries=
Compared to primaries, secondaries are faster, go further, and have a better refire rate. But not as much as damage, so it's easier to hit snub craft. Some use the primaries and secondaries in unison, as it does create some kind of basic chainfire, against gunboats/cruisers this works pretty well. It DOES work better for fighters/bombers, though still hard to hit.
=Escorts=
Are a joke, and a lie.
The only escorts that can actually make a bomber stop hitting it's target would be players with high aiming/accuracy to damage the bomber while it evades and charges itself for another SNAC shot.
Or..gunboats, but for the most part, Escorts are a lie. The only real escorting would be scouting for a trader, as in, going forward in the route and making the trader turn back if anything red appears.
Are a joke, and a lie.
The only escorts that can actually make a bomber stop hitting it's target would be players with high aiming/accuracy to damage the bomber while it evades and charges itself for another SNAC shot.
Or..gunboats, but for the most part, Escorts are a lie. The only real escorting would be scouting for a trader, as in, going forward in the route and making the trader turn back if anything red appears.
I wonder if you actually ever had useful escorts. There are 2 types of those
1. fighters
- split up and keep bomber shield down all the time while they drain powerplant with shieldbusters and slowly hurt hull
=> bomber never has shields and is very open for razor shots from battleships, bomber never has energy to really fire SN either
2. gunboats
- GB missiles and pulses also drain energy from bombers
"But then the bombers will target the gunboat", yes they will probably do that... so the GB can keep close to the BS it's defending so the BS guns (like solaris) hurt. At the same time the BS can trade bots to the GB, killing a moving GB with 1700 bats/bots close to a BS with a few solaris is extremely difficult.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
however mjolnir - it does not address the issue that there are too many ships that require escorts and too little slots / players that do escorts.
around 70 ships needing escorts is nothing out of the ordinary. - yet - if all those 70 even only had 1 escort - it would fill up the server to 140.
cause the idea is that each of those ships MUST have escorts, cause we balanced them to REQUIRE them ( its like flying without turrets when you have no escorts )
i think thats the biggest problem.
unless you say .... "well if t here aren t enough, tough luck"
but the community continously blames transports that are blown up for "not having escorts" or battleships that die to a handful of bombers for "not having escorts" - numbers show.... that having escorts cannot work though, unless we "beam escorts around to where they are needed the at the moment".
of course - IF a ship has escorts its harder to be taken down.
Capital ships have never been balanced. For example: Rheinland BS comes to Texas and ragedestroys 2 Dreadnaughts. Well, you can only do that if your pro, but it still works.
The ratio between "Light" Battleships and "Heavy" Battleships is not so good. Dreadnaughts and Carriers should be put in a different...uh...group.
If that would have happened the ship groups would be:
Fighters
Bombers
Gunboats/Gunships
Cruisers/Destroyers (althought I think Destroyers should be put separatly)
Battlecruisers/Light Carriers (who should have their own shield, and not use battleship/cruiser ones)
Dreadnaughts
Battleships
Carriers
InRP, carriers should be more stationary than mobile and in the middle of the fight. They are like a field HQ. Of course, you can't dock ships on a Carrier to make it more InRP, but that doesn't mean a Carrier should be in the middle of a fight. They should bigger shield capacity (althought regen rate doesn't need to be changed).
Dreadnaughts were always more in a anti-snubcraft. They have less turrets and less armor. They can easily dodge SNACs (if you have the skill, which is easy). They can not destroy battleships or carriers, because of their lesser turret amount and armor amount. They should have a lesser shield, that proves them weaker than battleships.
Battleship, a vessel of mass destruction. Of course, alot of people are flying battleships these days, unattended. For example: The LNS. Hundreds and hundreds of people flying Dreadnaughts and Carriers and alot of other things. RNC are rarely seen around. I think that battleships should only be available if:
- Is a member of a official faction, that has rights over the requested ship
- With special permission, from the faction leader whos faction claims rights over the requested ship
If that were like that, we would be seeing much less battleships that, frankly, are used for more PvP things than RP. This is a RP server, and it sure doesn't fit InRP that a million LNS battleships fly around, with a few RNCs around. If this was RL, Rheinland would be crushed in a second.
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' Wrote:I wonder if you actually ever had useful escorts. There are 2 types of those
1. fighters
- split up and keep bomber shield down all the time while they drain powerplant with shieldbusters and slowly hurt hull
=> bomber never has shields and is very open for razor shots from battleships, bomber never has energy to really fire SN either
2. gunboats
- GB missiles and pulses also drain energy from bombers
"But then the bombers will target the gunboat", yes they will probably do that... so the GB can keep close to the BS it's defending so the BS guns (like solaris) hurt. At the same time the BS can trade bots to the GB, killing a moving GB with 1700 bats/bots close to a BS with a few solaris is extremely difficult.
I must add my experience to your ideas there:
A) Me (in a barge) + 15 escorts (one GB the rest VHFs) vs 3 bombers. I die, all bombers live.
FIFTEEN ESCORTS!!!
Escorts are a lie
B) I would much rather just hit the darned bomber with a GB rzor then go through all the trouble of draining its powerplant.. this is not practical.
' Wrote:however mjolnir - it does not address the issue that there are too many ships that require escorts and too little slots / players that do escorts.
around 70 ships needing escorts is nothing out of the ordinary. - yet - if all those 70 even only had 1 escort - it would fill up the server to 140.
cause the idea is that each of those ships MUST have escorts, cause we balanced them to REQUIRE them ( its like flying without turrets when you have no escorts )
i think thats the biggest problem.
unless you say .... "well if t here aren t enough, tough luck"
but the community continously blames transports that are blown up for "not having escorts" or battleships that die to a handful of bombers for "not having escorts" - numbers show.... that having escorts cannot work though, unless we "beam escorts around to where they are needed the at the moment".
of course - IF a ship has escorts its harder to be taken down.
Not having escorts is like not having turrets? Uhh :)
Transports don't need escorts 95% of the time, because their running distance is enough to get away from quite a few things before getting destroyed.
Also related issue would be that 1 escort can scout (= effectively evading any danger) for unlimited number of transport in a convoy.
Actually I think that the lack of transport escorts is caused by the above highlighted fact. Most of the time transports don't need escorts and those 5% of time where they are useful do not outweigh the effort/money spend on an escort.
Not even a lack of turrets (like on some big transports) changes this.
' Wrote:I must add my experience to your ideas there:
A) Me (in a barge) + 15 escorts (one GB the rest VHFs) vs 3 bombers. I die, all bombers live.
FIFTEEN ESCORTS!!!
Escorts are a lie
Barge was added as a joke/fun ship . Using it as an argument in anything about balance is not a very good idea.
Quote:B) I would much rather just hit the darned bomber with a GB rzor then go through all the trouble of draining its powerplant.. this is not practical.
Firing GB missiles which both drain powerplant, hurt hull and blast off components all that while being one of the easiest things to use is not practical?
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
i am not so sure if you actually understood the comment about escorts being turrets you don t have.... - cause you were either sarcastic in a situation not suited for sarcasm or you re not really spotting the issue.
capital ships are balanced vs. bombers with having escorts in mind.
so you would probably agree that we have NOT balanced battleships vs. bombers as if the battleship was on its own, but we balanced them as if they had escorts.
henceforth - not having escorts equals a missing part of the balance-puzzle... which you can call a turret for the matter of simplicity. or "means of defending yourself".
about the need for escorts...
if you can tell BEFORE an encounter has happened which transport / cap will need an escort and which one will not meet any enemies, you re a better fortune teller than i am.
sadly, the ships in need for an escort cannot really tell in advance - and no escort will make it in time if the ship in question runs into enemies ( unless its enemies attacking a liberty battleship in the heart of liberty )
i stand to what i said at the very beginning of the "ship needs escort" debatte - ... and that is ... including the NEED for escorts into the balancing is flawed.
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