' Wrote:Well, if they dont have tag, they are so called "indies". Pretty everyone can be one of them. You just need a few bribes and/or few missions. So even even someone who started playing today, dont know english and rules can be member of NPC faction like Outcast/Corsairs/Rouges. Tagged characters are members of official PLAYER faction. Its pretty hard to get into them, you need a lot of RP experience and if you get inside you have to RP.
Result: You can expect a good RP from a player wearing official faction tag but that dont neccesarily means that all tagles players want only your money.
Another note: If you are/want to be good RPer, you should have the basic encouter RP learned already. Like, i am traveling that way and there is a chance i meet xx,yy,zz faction or said "indies. Okay xx are friendly so i should say at least hello to themm maybe chat for a while. YY are neutral so hello and few other lines before i fly past them. Oh there are all so ZZ guys, those are my enemies so i should prepare some defensive/ofensive RP and/or get ready to be blasted/run.
Yeah, i see some tagless guys they can be enemies or friends. Well when i meet them i decide if i shoud use XX-RP/YY-RP/ZZ-RP.
EDIT: If you are even better RPer, you should be able to think up half decent RP In that one or two minutes of encounter
I see your point yet I tend to see a lot of level 70's with no tags. It's not easy to get to that level without some level of game RP and rule comprehension. Though most encounters I have with untagged ships who pirate me only lasts for about 2 minutes.
' Wrote:word 'improvise' doesn't ring a bell, does it? and just to be clear here - you are saying that you constantly peek the chat window to see what's in the system you are about to enter, to find out who is there. i'm sorry but i find that wrong and game-spoiling. there is a certain element of surprise that keeps the heart pumping faster when you are jumping to enemy territory.
oh and on another note, everyone is like you. they trade, but when they know pirates are in a system in front of them, they do their best to meet up with them. they even hail them on system wide comm. riiiight.
Viko your existence on this thread is as invalid as a Diet soda in an all you can eat buffet. Go to the ??? system and RP there ok?
' Wrote:Well not having a tag prevents those trying to look in chat tab for you from knowing what you are. Which is always a good thing for the one being hunted. If you name yourself [trader]IhazLoot prepare to get the loot taken off you.
The thing is, pirates WILL look in chat list. And any smart trader will too.
Thank you silverleaf. :)
I understand not having tags adds to the mystery of who is in a system, and entering a system and starting a system wide conversation to get that untagged ship to respond helps me RP with them.
My point is a lot of untagged ship tend to not say anything unless they are already pirating you. A tag would encourage RP sooner because they have actual rules to follow.
Sometimes, when all you want is to gain your freedom, you must be willing to risk it all.
Well, no... Tag doesnt mean that person wearing it is uberlolawsum RPer... Sorry but this argument is just invalid... Either i missed the point in what you wanted to say or i am just plain stupid. I hope its the first while i somewhat know its the later. Adam, if you could, one more time, tell me what are you trying to achieve.
In one post you say that you have no intention to avoid RP but in another you say that you would do practicaly everything to avoid a pirate. You also seem to use chat list to see who is in the system. Chat list, the exact thing thats pure OORP tool. I am really confused...
What you don't seem to be getting is that you are not supposed to know where the pirate is going to be. No pirate would in his right mind ever broadcast his position and intent.
You don't want tags so you can "prepare" your RP, you want to know where the pirates are to completely avoid them. How in the hell does this beneficial to the RP environment? If you've run into some pirates that make a demand and shoot you if you don't comply, try paying them. You might survive.
No one has to reply to you when you say something in system comms. There is no rule for that, nor is that "good RP." A pirate's RP is to rob you of your money or cargo. Not to give you pleasant RP. Getting robbed isn't supposed to be pleasant. Hence it's a crime.
First of all, Adam, "Metagaming" is altering your play, according to the information that you as a Player have, while your Character shouldn't know them. This might not be against server rules, but it's severely frowned upon (As you can see in past 4 pages). Looking at the Player List and sorting it by System to see if you're safe in the next few systems is one of the simplest forms of Metagaming, because your trader shouldn't really know who is where in the galaxy. Well... Many of us do it and there's really no way to prevent it as far as I know, But just let's not encourage it, shall we?
And about the Tags and NPC or Official affiliation: When you do enough missions or get enough bribes to get a faction's ID and IFF, you'll be a part of NPC Faction, which is simply referred to as "Indie" (Independent) Player around here. But there are Official Factions for each ID as well, and Only the members of the Official Faction are the ones using the Official Tags to show their membership in the faction. If anyone wants to use the Official Tag, they should apply for that faction in their Recruitment Thread and if accepted, they can put the tag (Like RepEx-, IMG|, [LN], BPA) and etc.) in their name. There are also Unofficial factions (or Player Groups), who don't have the Rights of Official Factions but fly together as a Group and use a Tag to reflect that. (Like FBG~, 30th|, [13th], etc.)
One of the biggest problems of Official Factions (Specially Trading/Mining ones, or an official faction who have a Bounty on them) is being metagamed by Hostile Groups through the Chat window, to a point where Phantoms, Nomads, Wilde and similar groups Don't even use a Tag on their ships. I'm pretty sure many other factions would voluntarily get rid of their tag if there was any other way to reflect their official status. Why? Because people use the Chat screen just too often, which is not a good thing.
Now from what I understand from the first post, you're suggesting Everyone, including indies, add a Tag to reflect their ID in the Player list. Why? So your trader can know where the Pirates are and where the friendlies? So you can avoid Unwanted Player interaction by using something which would not exist InRP (i.e. Player List)? Well... I have a really really simple answer to this:
So let me get this straight aerelm because you apparently think that larger font empowers your answers in some mighty interweb way.
When you enter the game you do everything in your power to not use the chat window because Metagaming is information the Player and not the Character should know. From this I can conclude that to provide the best overall Roleplay, you and the other RP 'experts' do not use the chat window to:
-Locate a faction friendly ship but rather rely on system chat and in-space encounters to know they are on.
-Identify what chat group an engaged PvP is in before entering the combat zone or system.
In fact, you cant seem to contact or have proper communication without using the chat window. Military ships use it to warm traders a far from impending pirate attacks. Traders use it to contact those on a route of a pirate attack they encountered. It's like you are saying the good guys cant use it to protect our own assets but pirates can use them to gather players to log off and meet elsewhere for a pirate gank? I mean this is what the point of this thread is: The chat window is used to both warn and converge, to identify and group. I always thought of it like a Long Range sensor. But here it's considered Metagaming. Then I guess the old adage is true, its not cheating unless you lose. The pirates loose out on a raid, traders are metagaming, traders get blown up by a group that wasn't there 3 minutes ago, its metagaming.
Even using the chat window, we still ask trade ships to watch out for pirates. At times using the chat window is pointless anyway to begin with because pirates wait to the last minute, switch characters and then appear in the systems we're about to enter. Gee I wonder how the stout Roleplay experts knew we're coming?
[major addition]
Lets do this point by point shall we jakub963?
Quote: Well, no... Tag doesnt mean that person wearing it is uberlolawsum RPer... Sorry but this argument is just invalid... Either i missed the point in what you wanted to say or i am just plain stupid.
I'll have to say you're plain stupid by default then because you took a point I was making, where I said that people with a tag have more of an obligation to RP better to mean they are'¦what did you say? 'uberlolawsum' Yea, that comment makes you plain stupid. You're trying to make my comments of people being more responsible in RP with a tag to some incredible level of godhood RP skils. Wow what an extreme, and you're still plain stupid. I'll try to clarify my intentions to help you out of that plain stupidness.
You also seemed to make a comment that pretty much was the point I was trying to make. So I'll post what you said to help you out.
Quote: There is a diference. When player have an iff/id then he is generaly viewed as member of npc faction(cant wear oficial tag). But most npc factions have player factions behind them and making decisions(the ones that have tags). The first are more or less independend, while the later have more, for lack of better word, power.
Ok we just established a base line thought. Apparently Tagged ships have more 'power' behind them while Independents have less simply due to their npc faction having no really voice behind it. We can also conclude that this lack of power needs to be balanced in another way. Lack of faction power is then 'balanced' by lack of, necessity to follow any voice or guidelines that would prevent that said faction from acting how he or she decides at the moment. Let me break it down a bit more. Those who play NPC factions tend to RP only the bare minimum and blow things up more. Let's continue. You said:
Quote: Adam, if you could, one more time, tell me what are you trying to achieve.
In one post you say that you have no intention to avoid RP but in another you say that you would do practicaly everything to avoid a pirate.
Ok. You seemed to pick up on one point while totally ignoring my other points. You must run for some political office because you truly have the skills for it.
As I stated on the 1st page My Freelancers have a [FL] Tag and my trade ships have a sudo rep exp Id. I dont care if they have an outcast or Corsair ID but something to help me id who they are. Sneaking around the jump holes isnt any problem but when I see five or 6 names in the list that have not a single id to tell me who they are, I's stuck with having to fly right past a freindly or have no forewarning of impending danger. They can see me coming a mile away with my ID and have some idea how to form a plan to either gank me or pirate me or RP with me.
Pirates rely on suprise but even a freelancer ID gives me some idea what to expect. I see a Hog or KNF or BD, I know that I should either, brave the run, take a JH or find another route. That's my point.
You and a lot of others here seem to automatically conclude that, for me, seeing a tagged ship that is hostile to my ship would automatically prompt me to avoid encounters that encounter. Um, no. If I want to make money and I'm shipping a product, all I can see is that they are in the system, not where they are on the other side. Most pirates (aka anyone who is about to 'pirate' you) are smart enough to watch either closer to the drop of points or watch the jumpholes and gates. As a trader, if I want to make money, I got to go through and take a chance either with the jump hole or gate. Now lets think of this objectively. Ready?
I don't use the chat window and I have no clue if anyone is in the other system. I know from previous experience that system is a hot spot for trouble. I know the where the jump holes and gates are. I still have to make the choice and take the risk. I pop into a system and I'm disrupted. The pirate gives a little dialogue which includes me giving some amount I simply don't wish to. Now here is the problem. I have about 1 minute to give in or fight. There is your RP? That's what you want? This is your understanding of Role-playing at its finest? Are you insane?
Now lets look at it from this perspective.
Everything else is the same except I know, from looking at the chat window and there is say a farmers Alliance ship on the other side. Before I even enter the system I know I can try to say I support his faction, giving rp understanding of the 'struggles' Not everyone has each factions pros, cons, history, and political stance memorized and I surely don't. If I visit Wiki and I glance at the faction I see 'A collection of Kusari farmers, fighting to protect the traditional Kusari culture.' Well that sounds like a noble bunch of people I can negotiate with and reason with. Then I read deeper into their background and find they are rather quite UNREASONABLE and are dead set against encroaching outside influences. 'Our goal is to convince the Kusari government and people to reject the outside influences that have soiled our young Kusari.' Well crap. How am I as a Republican trader, going to convince a Farmers alliance ship not to hull me on the spot or at least pirate me for some large amount of cash that will just keep perpetuating the issue. At this level of understanding I have a slew of Role-play options. Contact local Kusari patrols in hopes they will quell the impending attack. Wait for another transport to enter the system and maybe its escort and pay them a small sum so we can attempt to overwhelm the impending attack in time to land and make profit. Or at the very least, mentally prepare some RP that would have a convincing overtone that what I am doing may ultimately help Kusari remain independent in the long run.
That is how I see placing tags on ships helps me and encourages RP.
Quote:You also seem to use chat list to see who is in the system. Chat list, the exact thing thats pure OORP tool. I am really confused...
I'm tired and this is becoming an ambiguous 'opinion' thread which only serves to prove that internet/Special Olympics adage so I'll be brief.
To my surprise it seems I would try any option I felt at the moment jakub963 to have fun from Discovery. Because that's what we all say we're here to do. Yet oddly enough when I try to make a point encouraging better RP through the use of tags, (not uberlolawsum) The ones who I try to have a better 'encounter' with are guilty of the same thing. These people who just suddenly appear in mass droves can't possibly know I'm on route to a system unless they TOO, use the chat box to see I'm on and we're I'm headed. I hear it all the time from those in the kruger mining. 'I travel to NT and just when I'm about to enter they switch characters and gang me. So seriously. Will you all stop saying you DON'T use it as if you have some higher moral standard to guide your RP by? Pirates use it to gank and pirate while traders use it to avoid/prepare for the inevitable. For me, I'll gun right through all the time. I just would rather know who I'm dealing with before I get there.
Sometimes, when all you want is to gain your freedom, you must be willing to risk it all.
Adam, from plowing through four (possibly five now) pages of this thread and reading all of your (to me, slightly disjointed) posts I think I can see your problem.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt - you wouldn't use it for avoiding possible pirate encounters but to actively search for opportunities to get yourself ripped off by pirates for the sake of some good role play with them........
The source of your problem isn't so much with 'being able to prepare for role play", what ever that means, but that (some/many/all) pirates don't give you a chance to RP with them? The "2milz o day!1!" encounters which are over in 30 seconds?
If all pirates took part in some good, meaningful RP before you *handed over the wonger/got blatted from the sky/ran off/destroyed the pirate in a fiery ball of death* then would your problem be solved?
Welcome to the world of Freelancer on-line, it aint ever going to happen and more the pity. The 'problem' is the people behind the keyboard and less the games 'mechanics'.
Having every players affiliation broadcast on the players list will in no way improve the gaming experience for anyone attempting to role play, it will just make it that much easier for lawfull's, unlawfull's and everyone in between to hunt each other down and remove much of the excitement and spontaneity from the game.
"Viko your existence on this thread is as invalid" - just so you know, the "best" RP times I've had whilst being pirated have been when Viko has been pointing his guns at me.
And no, I have never had a pirate character (but thinking about it more and more.......).
I don't even know why I'm bothering to post in here, since it is evident that this is not a discussion, it's simply one person arguing "My way or the high way!"
But people will choose to name themselves the way they will. A rule to enforce such strict naming conventions would be detrimental, particularly with a 24 character name limit. Not only that, but it is trivial to argue that not having a tag on every single ship makes it harder for you to roleplay.
Guess what, everyone on this server has been roleplaying with tagless people for the past five or so years that Discovery has been around for. So what disability do you have that makes you incapable of doing what everyone else on this server already does that we must bend our ways to accomodate you?
I detect another PEBCAK. Problem exists between chair and keyboard.
Okay look,i used word "uberlolawsum" as a metaphor, i didnt tought that you take it THAT seriously but obviously you did... I wanted to ease the tension that is building up in this thread...
Same with the "plain stupid" part... I ment it as a joke but again you took it dead-serious...And even threw it back to my eyes 4 times...Well, my fault... the one i will be very careful to not make again...
Quote: Those who play NPC factions tend to RP only the bare minimum and blow things up more.
Yes, mostly because they are new players that are not even registered on forums and just barely know the rules.
However some more experienced players prefer to be part of NPC faction rather that Player faction simply because they dont like the way ofiicial faction decided to follow. Yes the risks of meeting people that are not willing to RP and just want your credits is really high. If you say they you would still fly near them even if they have hostile tag then the tag is kinda unnecessary. Also... pirates want to stay unspoted untill its too late(this is intentional, it is RP), putting tag on would nulify this.
Quote:You must run for some political office because you truly have the skills for it.
Yeah, i always tought so but i think i will always stay in your shade. :P
Also, you can always put your tags down and pirates would be more careful because the wouldnt know if you are helpless 5k trader or cap 8 bounty hunter gunship... Problem solved, have a nice day...
Quote: The source of your problem isn't so much with 'being able to prepare for role play", what ever that means, but that (some/many/all) pirates don't give you a chance to RP with them? The "2milz o day!1!" encounters which are over in 30 seconds?
YAY! We have comprehension!
Quote: If all pirates took part in some good, meaningful RP before you *handed over the wonger/got blatted from the sky/ran off/destroyed the pirate in a fiery ball of death* then would your problem be solved?
Yes.
Quote: Welcome to the world of Freelancer on-line, it aint ever going to happen and more the pity. The 'problem' is the people behind the keyboard and less the games 'mechanics'.
Quote:Having every players affiliation broadcast on the players list will in no way improve the gaming experience for anyone attempting to role play, it will just make it that much easier for lawfull's, unlawfull's and everyone in between to hunt each other down and remove much of the excitement and spontaneity from the game.
I can see how that happens. Many don't log in with their Nomad Keeper ships because they are attacked by any and everyone. Making RP harsh. On the other hand, Nomads are the enemy of Sirius so they should expect exactly that type of response. Yet several attempt RP to become a wild or hosted with a nomad for additional RP. I have only Rped with one Nomad where we talked for 20 minutes. Yet they had a Keeper tag so perhaps it can work both ways.
From my perspective, tags place a real life commitment to a player to adhere to the rules of that faction. The other side of the coin is that tags take away elements of surprise and thrill that can enhance unknown RP encounters. It seems, having all tags is a sure fire way to eliminate that 'added' element of surprise. In that respect it seems that Tags have only the added purpose to officially identify a player as a member of a faction and in no way adds or subtracts from the RP experience. If the Chat window is not to be used, then that's all a Tag would really provide. If that's genuinely what Discovery strives for, then that's all tags are good for yes?
[quote name='Ashes' date='Nov 1 2010, 04:34 AM' post='1201694']
I don't even know why I'm bothering to post in here, since it is evident that this is not a discussion, it's simply one person arguing "My way or the high way!"
Then +1 somewhere else if that's what you think. bye bye.
Quote:Also, you can always put your tags down and pirates would be more careful because the wouldnt know if you are helpless 5k trader or cap 8 bounty hunter gunship... Problem solved, have a nice day...
jakub963 Point taken. Understanding the mentality of this was my goal in this while trying to grasp how to make Discovery a better place for myself and those I interacted with. I'm actually a really swell guy, give me time. Now I have a better objective understanding of the use of tags and RP in Discovery. Thank you all for having patience...for the few that showed it.
Sometimes, when all you want is to gain your freedom, you must be willing to risk it all.
So, based on a bad encounter with a poorly RP'd pirate (as if we all haven't encountered someone that RP's poorly) you'd like to enact sweeping changes to the game?
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