How should Zoners "behave"?

[Eppy]

So, essentially, give the AW their own NPC faction. Seems simple enough to me...

(wow, this thread has really snowballed.)

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Quick comment - we thought that Panzer was the Leader, Swift. -Agmen

Which Dreadnought was that?

One of your nine.

[bluntpencil2001]

No.

Everyone will want it, people like Nayehiya, SCRA and others all have claims that are just as legit for an NPC faction. It would be silly.

If they admitted to being a private army, easily done with a Merc or Asgard ID, saying that Luciaden is paying them to do his bidding, it might work.

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[Firebird]

My thing with AW is I'd like to see a decision between being Zoners or Mercenaries. The two roles conflict with each other in defining the nature of the AW. All other factions have their actions matching their chosen ID, SF/SA/RM/KNF act like the house military scanning for contraband, protecting traders, hunting pirates and terrorists. SCRA act like the coalition, HF/TBH/NovaPG act like pirates. AW act like? To me and others the answer is not Zoners, which in itself is the problem.

Definitions from my point of view:
Zoners are neutral, they're concern is trading and defensive actions for their interests. They don't overtly attack anyone since it affects their ability to trade, similarly they don't really like anyone either since they rather be on their own and go wherever they want, also being two friendly with someone also hurts their trading abilities. The Zoners have both a neutral attitude and are treated as neutral by the majority of Sirius (rep set by the RP of the mod).

Mercenaries (broad sense) can be lawful, unlawful or neutral. The neutrality is not in the same way as the Zoners. Their actions and contracts affect their ability to do business and influence their rep. They are open to attacking anyone for the right amount of money. In other words, a mercenary can have a neutral attitude but the rest of the world love or hate his guts. (rep set by their business and contracts)

AW likes being able to take up contracts on both sides of the law which (correct me if I'm wrong) is the reason they went and want the Zoner ID. But being or acting on the Zoner's behalf means they can't just attack anyone they feel, otherwise it defeats the Zoners neutral attitude and external viewpoint as being neutral.

My suggestion on fixing this is that AW should really consider using a generic mercenary ID. This frees up their rep such that other groups can be friendly or hostile to AW (and vice versa) while being neutral to the Zoners. The defense of traders in Theta then becomes a mercenary agreement by AW to defend the interests of Zoners.

I agree that I'd rather not see another NPC/ID brought in UNLESS there is clear need for it (ie. clearly no other ID present in the mod that would fit).

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Retired

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[Slavik]

Righto guys, I've just gone through the ENTIRE thread and its time for my opinion

Right, the AW need to stop acting like zoners and just be evil mercs... or just plain old mercs or just a private army. ZONERS ARE NEUTRAL AND GIVE HUGS TO EVERBODY!!

Yes there can be something like a zoner mercenary, they fly with zoner tag, a mercenary ID and are neutral to all except wenn hired, if they are hired they should notify the people there are engaging, preferably in system chat to keep everbody aware of that.

And now lets all hug and start acting nice to each other!!

<----^_^----> HUGS FOR ALL INCLUDING THE AW

... I'll propably get flamed for the hug part but still....

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There used to be pictures here

once known as Richard Farbridge, OBE and Ronaldo Benitez

[Unit-sk855]

Furthering my initial point.

my question is.. is it OK to purchase an outcast destroyer ( just like the design and the size and protection is just perfect for an allrounder ) and still have a zoner ID?

http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6891

The community answer was.

If you want to be a Zoner, buy Zoner ships and weapons. If you want to be an Outcast, buy Outcast ships and weapons. If you want to be a Corsair, buy Corsair ships and weapons. Seeing a pattern here? I don't care if it's about looks. Here, it's about Roleplay.

same post, and thats the best worded answer, and from an admin no less. So why is it ok in the AW mind set to have different privileges from other members of the community to breach rp, fly what they want, shoot who they want, and want the benefits of everything, and expect the community to not get a say in it? If there is a good rp reason why the AW's fly outcast destroyers link me the postage and ill read over it gladly. If such a reason is "We are allied with outcasts" things change, no one would trust their potential future enemies with weapons equal to their own.

Some new light on my earlier points.

Dab, I am going to sanction you if you don't stop trying to control Theta.
I said many times that we don't have authority there, but we can only attack those at war with us, or protect those people who sends a distress call..

and what i said initially

This includes mercenaries flying battleships that your members shoot at simply for flying a battleship in zoner space.

To elaborate, and i really am wishing i had a screen shot of it, a merc was asking an AW why he was shooting him, the answer was exactly "Because you flew a battleship into my system." This was in theta, and it happened yesterday. The merc did not attack, was neutral, and was simply tending to his own non hostile business.

one last thing for now

The replies to Mal will be sent through PMs, as I'm not of the mind to deal with a public bashing session

You have alot more people than just mal that are concerned with your factions actions. Its not against you personally, the community wants an explanation for your faction. You are pretty much the speaker of your organization at the time, so your the one that needs to explain.

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*Wilson shows off his ham sandwich* - Armory.003
*mark placed on Unit-sk855's forehead* - Head hitting the desk as of reading the above

[BlueBelly]

I was not disappointed. The contradictions and irony abound to an unbearable level, and I lack the strength to list them all.:)

Thank you all

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Has left this police-state to its fate.

[DarkOddity]

My thing with AW is I'd like to see a decision between being Zoners or Mercenaries. The two roles conflict with each other in defining the nature of the AW. All other factions have their actions matching their chosen ID, SF/SA/RM/KNF act like the house military scanning for contraband, protecting traders, hunting pirates and terrorists. SCRA act like the coalition, HF/TBH/NovaPG act like pirates. AW act like? To me and others the answer is not Zoners, which in itself is the problem.

Definitions from my point of view:
Zoners are neutral, they're concern is trading and defensive actions for their interests. They don't overtly attack anyone since it affects their ability to trade, similarly they don't really like anyone either since they rather be on their own and go wherever they want, also being two friendly with someone also hurts their trading abilities. The Zoners have both a neutral attitude and are treated as neutral by the majority of Sirius (rep set by the RP of the mod).

Mercenaries (broad sense) can be lawful, unlawful or neutral. The neutrality is not in the same way as the Zoners. Their actions and contracts affect their ability to do business and influence their rep. They are open to attacking anyone for the right amount of money. In other words, a mercenary can have a neutral attitude but the rest of the world love or hate his guts. (rep set by their business and contracts)

AW likes being able to take up contracts on both sides of the law which (correct me if I'm wrong) is the reason they went and want the Zoner ID. But being or acting on the Zoner's behalf means they can't just attack anyone they feel, otherwise it defeats the Zoners neutral attitude and external viewpoint as being neutral.

My suggestion on fixing this is that AW should really consider using a generic mercenary ID. This frees up their rep such that other groups can be friendly or hostile to AW (and vice versa) while being neutral to the Zoners. The defense of traders in Theta then becomes a mercenary agreement by AW to defend the interests of Zoners.

I agree that I'd rather not see another NPC/ID brought in UNLESS there is clear need for it (ie. clearly no other ID present in the mod that would fit).

Agreed, fully.

<SNIP>
one last thing for now
You have alot more people than just mal that are concerned with your factions actions. Its not against you personally, the community wants an explanation for your faction. You are pretty much the speaker of your organization at the time, so your the one that needs to explain.

Also agreed.

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[Korrd]

The AW does not use Zoner id, but AW ID.

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(Really, I speak terrible English, so please, tell me if I make mistakes. I'd like to improve it a bit )

[DarkOddity]

For me, the AW's ID use is not an issue.

The problem is the "We are Zoners" behavior mixed with war mongering.

I have no problem with the war mongering, all the people who have tenure here are familiar with me and how much I love to PVP lol. It just doesn't mix.

When I mentioned the AW's original RP, I was indeed talking about their militaristic/mercenary ways as a Private Army which was the original RP for them.

Here is what I think should be done with this.

AW would be considered a Private Army/Mercenary faction. Their affiliation with the zoners would simply be that they occupy the ZONERS guard system and protect it. The AW Would have no "Zone of Influence" on zoner space (as is the current circumstance) This would enable to AW to keep their current system as they would still be protectors for the Zoners, just only in THAT system. This would also enable the AW to proceed with whatever political agenda they would like.

That is just my two cents feel free to take it or leave it. I personally feel the AW is a great faction and would hate to see things changed too drastically for them, but I really don't think they should be allowed to call themselves Zoners either.


Also, I cannot believe that adding in a AW NPC faction was even brought up.

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My Website

[Dab]

If you simply read Ghosts of the Past, alot of these questions would be answered. Heck, I was told people wanted to demand I make a AW History RP thread just a week ago. Guess they didn't read GotP because it IS the history thread.

Now, Mal asked me to post this here, so here is my PM I sent to him. It will answer the majority of your questions, unless you simply don't want it to be true, in which case you'll not gain a thing.

First thing that needs to be said is; Who first initiated the hostilities with AW?

TBH: Declared publicly that they would aid the SCRA, and as such, attacked the AW.

OPG/PM/Benitez: Helped TBH in their attacks and defense, attacking AW before we ever engaged the Corsairs (we said publicly that we would NOT attack, nor restrict any Corsairs not aligned with the TBH.

BSG: We are not yet at the formal call of war, though we are hostile. They attacked the AW-Defel in Gamma. I had intended to stay out of the fight between NovaPG and BSG, except that one of the Albatrosses fired on me as soon as it was within range.

LSF: Again, attacked the Defel at the same time as the Albatross (aiding Corsairs, and you question MY RP?)

SA: Brought battleships into Theta, and also attacked our ally's home system. Until then they had not attacked Vespucci, so we left them to fight each other. BSG and LSF also attacked Vespucci.

Phantoms: The only faction we are currently hostile with that we intiated hostilities with. This is because of RP, and if you read Ghosts of the Past, you know what that RP was.

We didn't start any of the wars with any of th people we are fighting, and people are regularly attacking us.

Our ID says we are allowed to attack unlawfuls, and we are allowed to attack unlawfuls, so long as we have an RP reason to do so. Is self-defense and retaliation un-RP? I don't think so, same things countries today do. And to all those factions that did attack us, we gave them a chance to apologize and go back to neutral, no harm done to reputations and we wouldn't retaliate against them. None of them accepted.

AW allied HF for many-explained reasons. Look them up. We are friendly to Outcasts because that alliance, the Corsairs attacking us, and the last 2 admirals we had, were both formally Outcasts.

We are friendly to The Order because they helped us regularly in the past, and are now also allies of the Zoners.

If any of the factions we are hostile with come to us with peace negotiations, or accept our peace offers, we will talk with them about them. We are not war-mongering, but these attacks are regularly forced upon us. If you haven't noticed, we aren't hostile to SCRA, though they help Corsairs defend Gamma. This is because of negotiations, and it has been cleared that they will aid in defence of Gamma, but not any other systems we engage Corsairs, nor will they seek fights with us, unless we actively attack Corsairs in Gamma.

Enough of your 'AW aren't Zoners" bull****, because if OTHERS treated us as Zoners, the neutral ones we claim to guard, we wouldn't have wars with the people your complaining about us fighting.

Now, I haven't claimed AW to be Zoners. It looks like it at the bottom of the quote because I was talking to Mal and he knows what I meant by it. Multiple times over multiple months I have pressed this on MANY people. We are the guardians of the Zoners. This is why we prohibit hostilities in Theta.

Now Korrd says I need to stop controlling Theta. This I think is coming from a brunt of bad intel. I am NOT controlling Theta as people are saying. I'm doing the same with that, what Corsairs do with Gamma, Outcasts with Alpha, SF with Cambridge. We ONLY attack people who are either A: Hostile to us, whom we fight, and chase down if they run. This is typical, and would happen anywhere, no matter WHICH faction was involved. This is what ALL factions do. They don't let their enemy just flit around. B: Attack someone/Pirate someone. By doing this they make their character and/or faction hostile with AW. To be fair, we always give these people an opportunity to stop what they are doing. We will warn them; Stop attacking (or pirating) or you'll be killed. If they comply, everyone goes on about their business. If they don't, they are made hostile, and as such we attack them.

Now, about the Battlestar in Theta last night. Yes, we attacked it. You want to actually know why before you use it as 'just evidence' to condemn us? He parked that thing in Theta for an HOUR. He sat in Theta, with a battleship, for an hour. Now, AW has a policy about that, that we had to make a few months ago. Specifically because of 2 reasons. One, people kept parking their BSs in Theta so they could attack Alpha and Gamma. Now, since we don't want fighting to occur in Theta, this obviously would end up with Corsairs and/or Outcasts coming in to destroy the battleships that were staging from Theta. Two, if you guys read the above quote, I mention in there who has attacked us recently. In the last 2 months, we have been attacked by PM, LDDLG, Benitez, OPG, LSF, BSG. Before that SCRA was also making trouble in Theta (will be explained later) and because we stopped SCRA, TBH stepped into the war. And to correct Equinox, the TBH didn't enter the war to help SCRA shoot HF. That hostility had been there for months before TBH got involved. You want to know WHEN they got involved? Less than 2 days after AW declared hostilities with SCRA because they attacked an ALLY in THETA. Attacked an Ally, and did something they knew we didn't allow. Want to know where TBH attacked first? Theta. They brought a big group in and attacked us. Now, considering how often we are attacked, would YOU want a battleship sitting in a system your guarding for an hour? A fully armed and armored on?

I told him, like I tell all battleships. "Please finish your business and move on."

@pipsqueak; You ask why AW was fighting a Titan? Did you ask the Titan first? He came in and attacked us immediately. I hadn't even known he was there until I turned around and saw him shooting me. Seems your blaming the wrong person for that conflict, just as your blaming us for the conflicts with BSG, LSF, SA and the Corsairs.

And about the bounties, yes AW claimed alot of bounties. Did you see WHO those bounties were on? TBH and Benitez. Two factions who had attacked us, and Benitez were still doing so. See the other bounties? Have we yet collected one on RM, or one on that SFCR? Hmm, either I'm just blind, or no, we didn't.

And since we are guard, we need fighter ships? Hmm, 101st don't use only fighters. TBH doesn't just use fighters either. AW uses 65% fighters, 45% caps. Sometimes even more fighters than that ratio. The Corsairs have a 20% fighters to 80% capship rate. Yeah, we are guard, we are stuck in JUST fighters. Riiiight. Could this just be because your mad AW is hostile to factions your in? Seems to me that is a case here.

@majkp; In contrary to what everyone is saying here about how I conduct wars, I first discussed with SCRA, then later with you directly about conditions on how we could end the war. I think I'll just quote you directly, that way it can't be said yet again that I'm lieing, or that I don't give our enemies an option to how we could end the wars.

Thanks also for the cease-fire offer but it think having someone real to fight is a best practice. Unless thing start getting out of our hands, let's stay with current status.

I think the recent tentions between 101st, TBH, AW, Benitez, OPG, NovaPG, Bushido and the others finally brought some live to the server. And i hope we can manage to get through it without flames and have a lot of fun..

Don't let me stop you, please, keep criticizing AW on how we 'are so eager to fight someone.'

@Hoodlum; Your saying Tank flamed everyone. Well first; Lots of people have been flaming me. Heck, there have been flames directed personally towards me. Secondly, Tank said for everyone to shut up until I can respond, and to stop making these flame-bait threads. Thats less flame than I've seen from half the people in here. And they definitely aren't all 'civil' about it either. If you do want to get on Tank's back, then get on all the other people doing the same, or worse, in this thread.

@McNeo; The answer to 'Why are you attacking the Corsairs' is explained in my quote at the top. And as to why I wasn't originally going to talk in this thread, and why I will stay out of it for the most part after this post, is because rather than snap at a bunch of flame-bait dangled in front of me, I'd rather see people come to me through PMs first when they have questions or complaints, rather than make it a public bash session. Now, this is the exact approach thats ALWAYS suggested, except in AW's case. Funny, how I haven't received one PM about ANY of this. Not a question, nor a complaint. You all just jumped on this 'bash AW' bandwagon as soon as it appeared. Last time I got a PM about this stuff, was when the previous thread was being posted.

@Salamander; Ask yourself WHY we might be hostile to Outcasts. Firstly, our ally is Lane Hacker-aligned. Thats an ally of Outcasts. Friendly there. Secondly, in the past (IN OUR RP) some of our highest-ranking members and biggest RP-posters were originally, or later, Outcasts. Thirdly, the 101st [formerly the GoR] helped us in the past, such as when SA, SF, and CCE came and attacked Theta on a consistent basis, and helped us in Liberty when we retaliated. [And if no one noticed, we said to SF, that if they get out and leave that war to HF and SA only, we would back out too. They did, and we did. That sounds REAL 'eager' to fight there, doesn't it?] Fourthly, Corsairs are attacking us constantly. We don't initiate the hostilities, we only fight those who have already attacked us. The problem is that most attack us on sight, even the independent ones. Funny, how we are expected to act as Zoners, but are never treated enough like one to just be like them. When people attack us, we don't sit still and let them. We will retaliate just like every other faction on this server. Now, Outcasts are the biggest enemies of the Corsairs. Hence, we are friendly. NovaPG are also hostile to Corsairs and regularly attacked Gamma, hence we are friendly. Called deductive reasoning.

@Blunt; All I can say, is read the former threads on this subject. It will answer your demands/questions. Do your homework. And your comment to Korrd about asking for an AW NPC faction? Hmm, seems I never asked for one every before, and Korrd just now in this thread did. However, you, the SCRA, asked for one about 3 different times, and you haven't been a very old faction in comparison. Telling him that won't solve anything is being hypocritical about your own demands for one.

Also, HF aren't exactly pirates. They don't pirate. They are an unlawful military that opposes Liberty. I'd like to see one screenshot of them actually PIRATING anyone before you ever accuse them of it. Also, HF has been told not to attack anyone not hostile to AW in Theta, and AW doesn't attack anyone in Vespucci unless they are hostile to HF.

@Equinox; The 'backdoor' stuff with AW and SCRA was actually supposed to be posted about. It never was.. If you want the most detail, talk to Alpha-429 and Tank Target about it.

And about us attacking you (which is not every day. It was 5 days between the time we attacked you Yesterday, and the time we attacked you before that. Again; If you want to know why we are still at war, read the quote of Majkp in PMs. He didn't want it to end, and I even gave him an offer, just as I gave SCRA the offer to take to TBH, OPG, Benitez, and PM, which they never did. I made an attempt to end this war, your leadership didn't want to do (for sound reasons that I agreed with, not bashing that). So stop saying AW is just out to attack you.

@Kane; Your not wrong. Our RP actually has us as Luciaden's private army to combat the C'tan and Phantoms. Our merc part isn't part of the RP, and is really just leftover from our very early days. I thought about removing it awhile ago, but never did. If it helps people's minds, I can remove it. And yes, your right, it has been awhile since AW was hired. But thats because before this server became RP-oriented, we advertised ourselves as war-fighters that cost alot of money. Nowadays, those kind of wars you'd actually hire someone to help you in, don't happen. And there are so many alliances flying around (and admit, alot make less sense than the AW-HF alliance) that most people can rely on some type of help coming.

However, on the acting like Zoners part, you are wrong. When we are not attacked, we aren't hostile with people. Occasionally, I'll think about going hostile with someone, and keeping it a small war that is talked about beforehand with the other faction's leader, just so we can keep membership activity up. Unlike me, others don't just use independant characters, and use AW when needed. Members get bored, and you use them. Its the biggest problem AW ever has, is with membership activity. However, there have been times, and there will be times, were AW is not hostile to anyone but Phantoms. If we were not attacked at every corner, we wouldn't be at war with anybody right now, except maybe some of the new Corsair factions that don't seem to care about Zoner neutrality, and just want to pirate Theta.

@Firebird; All I can do is quote the Zoner ID for you.

Pilot carrying this ID has joined Zoners. Zoner ID grants its owner right to trade, escort traders, hunt pirates and terrorists, fulfill bounty contracts, participate in military operations on lawful side. Zoner ID owner cannot participate in any unlawful actions.
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports, Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships
Carrying unmounted IDs in your ship, as well as not equipping an ID, is a serious crime.

@DarkOddity; In your last post you just said exactly what AW does. For some reason, half the people here thing we call ourselves Zoners. This isn't true, and those same people don't listen when I tell them; We are not Zoners. We operate only as their guardians, and protect Omicron-74 and Omicron Theta. We don't exert ANY influence over any bases other than Omicron-74, Corfu, and Freeport 9 because they are in Theta. Because we are guardians of Zoners, we guard Theta and stop any hostilties there so they don't compromise the peace ther.e (I do NOT include NPCs in this. Zoners might not stop them from fighting in the system, but there is also game limitations that prohibit that from happening. But it says they stop it on the freeports, so AW does it in Theta as a whole. Same as a station, but simply on a greater scale.)

the only difference between your post and reality, is that AW also has ZoI over Theta. This is for a few reasons. Main among them is that its connected to Omicron-74, our home system. And then other is because we are there gaurdians, that is their main system and occupied only by them (in bases). We keep the peace there so it does not become a war zone, nor a pirating hotspot.



You guys wanted your response, well there you go, there it is. If any of you "Can't be bothered reading all that" as I've seen before, don't bother posting. And don't be too surprised if I post here again. I might not, as I'm pretty sick of re-explaining these same facts multiple times because people can't search into past threads and find the answers to questions that were made months ago.

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