Current Order Status

[The.Wizard]

Despite your grudge and hatred towards Order|, you indeed brought up some good points and sayings here. I'll just explain something: back when Kelt led Order|, not even I got in easily. I had problems with server rules and understanding of RP. Fair enough. And, unsurprisingly, the reason why you haven't got in was quite the same. I witnessed it all. You would've been quite a good member if you showed just a better bit of understanding... But you didn't.

I do remember things that some members of Order High Command were doing to TCG| in the time of FR-5,but it's not grudges anymore,it's lack of trust and confidence,no one in TCG| hates Order|,we just don't trust some of you any more.
Of course i needed some time to understand Rp and server it self and other stuff,it's nothing new,i received my share of lolwut sanctions...i didn't apply for Primary cause i couldn't see myself in it,i didn't like the way indies were treated then and i don't like it now.I have no doubt i would be accepted in Primary,i was asked to do so few times by Order| members.

Still, I do not understand how bad tensions between us and indies show us in a bad light. I would be grateful if you explained it thoroughly, with all facts mentioned.
It's good you have some sense of decency, Wizard (unlike Waratah, considering his 'verbosity').

When same thing and same problem keeps repeating for long time someone must be responsible...
Same misunderstanding between Primary and Secundary fleet existed 2 years ago as it exist now.
It is obvious that problem has not being solved in 2 years and someone should answer some questions about that.First logical choice is leader or leaders cause this thing is going on for a long time now...unless you want to expel everybody from the Sec.fleet and to be happy & alone in the tron.But that's called dictatorship...and this is still a game not the ego-proving ground.
And one more thing-many members or Primary fleet are also not happy with situation in Order|,It's not just Secundary fleet,it seams that problem is much bigger.
Specially when you consider the fact that other factions have indie players to but only in Order this problems somehow stay unsolved.

I'll take that last remark about "decency"as a sign of good will and better relations,not sarcasm cause is really not needed...you see,Waratah is a great guy,Barnes is a stubborn old-school trigger happy war dog with bad attitude.When personal bias steps in,people tend to forget that this is RP server.
I hope we'll understand each other better in the future.

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[McNeo]

As far as your arrangments with the RM, from what I know, you havent really gone far enough with them. It's pretty hard to convince a kraut that the mission of the Order is just as important as the Rheinland-Liberty war, but the diplomacy part is much harder than firing a few guns.

Here's a checklist of diplomatic things I'd like to see done with the houses (not including Liberty):

- Negotiate for the Order to gain patrol and confiscation rights of particular goods. Nomad materials mostly, but in order to gain this permission, you may have to make some compromises, such as also confiscating house contraband to which you may not be directly linked (normal cardamine, for example). Houses don't give free rides, even for humanitarian missions.

- If the government in question seems good willed enough, you can push for a base ship (Geb or Reseph, not Osiris) to use their facilities and be based within the house. If they like the idea, you should push for a base to use in their guard system or out-of-the-way base (Schatten, Newgate and Kansai Research Station come to mind). This is because in SP, the Order was a completely covert force, and while this is just not possible without cloaking devices in disco, seeing any Order vessel undocking from New London (for example) is pushing it just a bit too far.

- If the government aren't good willed enough (and don't expect them to just grant you stuff like that off the bat), just ask to base a few fighters somewhere, perhaps not so out of the way (Schatten is a secret Rheinland R&D shipyard for example). If they're still resistant, politely point out that there's no way you can stop the spread of the nomads if you're not given any means to do your job.

- Stop focussing on the unlawful side of Sirius. Yes, I mean folks like the Corsairs, SCRA and NLH, all of which you've had tighter relations with than any house authority. Sure, the Order in SP worked closely with Outcasts (Kress) and Blood Dragons (Hakera), but remember also that Hakera was the Lord of Kyushu, and that those times were different in that the houses had not been alerted to the presence of nomads due to their advanced state of contamination by them. Now they're alert, and have been cracking down on them. 20 years is a long time to forget the lessons of a war that was mostly averted, so it's your job to constantly remind them.

- Don't offer to do all the work yourself. 1. this creates a daunting task for your members that seems insurmountable and tends to drive people away or into inactivity. 2. this also means that the Order will be, inRP, footing the bill for all actions within a house, which isn't feasible given the amount of money that military actions consume. Raise awareness of the nomads in the house factions by for example, conducting seminars (in space) about their anatomy, method of infiltration and signs to look for. Position the 'nomad scanner', that seems to me to be a bit like an airport scanner, as the first line of defense, rather than a one-size-fits-all solution. I know the point about the seminars seems very pointless given that everyone ooRP knows about nomads anyway, but it's all about expanding the things you -can- do, rather than the things you -must- do.

- Related to the point above, get the military and police of wherever to spread the word to the populace of their houses. It's very easy to associate the word 'Nomad' with trying to scare people, so advise the police (being the primary civilian force in a house) to insert the warnings urging folks to keep vigil and not let down their guard into some of the more personal conversations they have with civilians. It gives the police something to do, and it strengthens your position. If they're reluctant to do this, ask why. It's quite hard to argue against measures, especially ones that have no direct cost, that protect humanity.

- Negotiate with the government. This may sound like a no-brainer, but the more connections to Sirius you have, the more easily those connections can be infiltrated. This is especially true if you negotiate with that police, this navy and that intelligence force. Why do this, when you can negotiate with the Kanzler, the Queen or the Emperor? Those heads of state can tell their armed forces what to do without you needing to get involved, so you only have to have one point of contact, rather than three per house. Yes, this is hard with Rheinland and Bretonia, as neither house has someone playing their head of state.

- To prevent any of the negotiators being nomad-infested (as a line to deepen roleplay value rather than of any pragmatic importance), have discussions with whoever the point of contact is be preceded by both you and them stepping through a series of nomad detection tests. These tests can be written, but shouldn't be over-elaborated, as they may precede all face-to-face negotiations. I can't imagine the Queen of Bretonia would be all that happy if you demanded she step through a nomad scanner while your guys sat there, confident in their nomadlessness, so join in.

- Indies. I don't mind their silliness, happens everywhere. Best thing to do here is approach the leaders of factions that get the most problems from your indies out of roleplay (say, if they start polluting Rheinland as an example) and say 'look, we can't control them, so if they're a problem, just kill them ok?'. I can't imagine many people objecting to that, as long as they feel you've tried hard to control them and they're just not reacting.

- Faction players. There's a lot of this rankwhoring stuff, but mostly because some lower ranking Order| think that the secondary fleet are full of idiots and want to put them through their paces (or perhaps just feel powerful). At this point, I can't really provide proof so take it with a grain of salt, but simply reminding newer members that their conduct reflects on the faction they represent, and that they are responsible for the image of the Order| might go a long way. Yes, it's obvious, but people need to be told obvious things sometimes.

This would have been a PM, but I want to see if other people agree with me. All of the above is up for debate after all.

[Jeremy Hunter]

+1

Everything you said is great.


WARNING: Text Wall

Lawful Diplomacy (this is my opinion/perspectove, please correct me if I am wrong somewhere. And Smokey, dont post. Its hard to not get annoyed at your stupid trolling)

This is my personal opinion. I am not speaking for the Order|

With Kusari the only nuetral, The Liberty Navy filled with both sympathisers and those jerks who hate us (<3 you Anne :P) is hard.

Here is my take, but I might be wrong somewhere regarding it. I will include Liberty, to be thorough.

LN:
I've met a few [LN] since I joined. Four or so have been indifferent, a few outright hostile.
Indies: I've had good experiences with Xiger, Anne's LSC, LNS-Lake.Michigan. So, diplomacy can be done with few of this Navy, but sadly Hale is stubborn. Diplomacy with individual ships and/or groups is possible, but unless Hale is given a nicer disposition...

BAF:
Now, BAF might be willing to listen, at least in the lower ranks. That would be a place to start, as two BAF helped me escort a USI. Now, I've only RP'd with a few BAF|, and no indies. So, I cant go into diplomatoc talks that much. I'd say the same,as Liberty, but maybe Ralston might listen (or tazer-flog, as Dieter loves to do)...

RM:
Ask Rod, I was in Newcastle.

KNF:
Unknown as off now, but the,KPT did attack us,once, so diplomacy is iffy there.

Now, for negotiations.
-Ask Rod, Im not that good at knowing that shtuff.

Goverment Cooperation:
Its hard to be accepted when three out of six (excluding Gallia, including Hispania) houses dont like you. Now, living that down is hard. As Sly said, it wont happen in a day. In the meantime, we already are starting to branch out following the NLH alliances dying (i think).
Now, capships I know wont be accepted (yes, my ossie is in Newcastle.) Right off the bat. we all know.

Stop with unlawfuls:
Good idea, we've been betrayed so far. But see above for our problem.

Doing it ourself:
Like hell we can. We do need help. Not alot of Order are on when a NomNom shows up, and when it does, I see lolcaps and people repping.

SOP: I see a nomnom get to Alaska, tell [LN] or the =LSF= and ask if they want help, or if I have permission to chase it. Usually I'm told to lay low.
Sadly, that has dried up since those days.

But McNeo hit it on the head: we need the support of the house when hunting. And no one likes to hunt without knowing you can call for backup from people closer.

Next point.

Spreading the word is easier when done in Houses who don't say the Nomads,are fake.

KNF, BAF, RM are all saying Noms exist. So, probably the word is slready spread. Again, personal opinion.

Negotiating with the head of state:
Zelot might listen when he gets back
Who is Carina
Who is the Kanzler (whats the Kanzler's name InRP anyways?)
Barbara Jacobi for President!

Next point in my self-opinion wall of text:

That is a good idea McNeo.

You should PM Rod to see if he likes that.

Next:

Half of the indies I want to purge. The other half, I wish would be looked at more.
You know thier not oolwut if they are tagged for the groups such as TOP, TCG, 63rd, OSS (no, no bad,taste in my mouth...no, wait, there it is. We're good.)


Officals:
Yeah, hate it when that happens.
And I admit, I accidently did that with 63rd|Killjoy, who InRP is,a Lt. Commander. But he didnt mind too much.
Yeah, reminding people of obvious things is, sadly, sometimes needed.

But, thankfully, I can say I have seen none so far (except Ilya as Joshua Taggert when it was brought up in the Order feedback, but Ilya's a proffesional, so its good.:D)

Long story short:

I agree.

This is my opinion, not what the Order| thinks.

---

May you ever walk in the Light, Shizune.

[Omicron]

McNeo, you forwarded lots of good ideas. But in diplomacy we will make it step by step not everything at once, Rheinland stuff is just beggining.

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[Rodent]

As far as your arrangments with the RM, from what I know, you havent really gone far enough with them. It's pretty hard to convince a kraut that the mission of the Order is just as important as the Rheinland-Liberty war, but the diplomacy part is much harder than firing a few guns.

I know we've been slow on the uptake, but as I have pointed out, the main problem is lack of motivation and initiative generally.Hence things are happening slowly.

Here's a checklist of diplomatic things I'd like to see done with the houses (not including Liberty):

- Negotiate for the Order to gain patrol and confiscation rights of particular goods. Nomad materials mostly, but in order to gain this permission, you may have to make some compromises, such as also confiscating house contraband to which you may not be directly linked (normal cardamine, for example). Houses don't give free rides, even for humanitarian missions.

- If the government in question seems good willed enough, you can push for a base ship (Geb or Reseph, not Osiris) to use their facilities and be based within the house. If they like the idea, you should push for a base to use in their guard system or out-of-the-way base (Schatten, Newgate and Kansai Research Station come to mind). This is because in SP, the Order was a completely covert force, and while this is just not possible without cloaking devices in disco, seeing any Order vessel undocking from New London (for example) is pushing it just a bit too far.

Interesting idea.

- If the government aren't good willed enough (and don't expect them to just grant you stuff like that off the bat), just ask to base a few fighters somewhere, perhaps not so out of the way (Schatten is a secret Rheinland R&D shipyard for example). If they're still resistant, politely point out that there's no way you can stop the spread of the nomads if you're not given any means to do your job.

This is already in progress.

- Stop focussing on the unlawful side of Sirius. Yes, I mean folks like the Corsairs, SCRA and NLH, all of which you've had tighter relations with than any house authority. Sure, the Order in SP worked closely with Outcasts (Kress) and Blood Dragons (Hakera), but remember also that Hakera was the Lord of Kyushu, and that those times were different in that the houses had not been alerted to the presence of nomads due to their advanced state of contamination by them. Now they're alert, and have been cracking down on them. 20 years is a long time to forget the lessons of a war that was mostly averted, so it's your job to constantly remind them.

The main motive behind allying with the unlawfuls was the tarnished image of Order in the houses. Given that the Order'll pretty much do anything, ethical or no, to get rid of the nomad threat annoys the houses, who see us as an unknown variable. It was thought that unlawfuls would have fewer qualms allying with us, given they dont give a poop about reputation, but I guess that logic fails.

- Don't offer to do all the work yourself. 1. this creates a daunting task for your members that seems insurmountable and tends to drive people away or into inactivity. 2. this also means that the Order will be, inRP, footing the bill for all actions within a house, which isn't feasible given the amount of money that military actions consume. Raise awareness of the nomads in the house factions by for example, conducting seminars (in space) about their anatomy, method of infiltration and signs to look for. Position the 'nomad scanner', that seems to me to be a bit like an airport scanner, as the first line of defense, rather than a one-size-fits-all solution. I know the point about the seminars seems very pointless given that everyone ooRP knows about nomads anyway, but it's all about expanding the things you -can- do, rather than the things you -must- do.

Spreading propaganda of any kind is the most thankless RP there is, in most cases. See other factions that live off propaganda, like the Volksfront, among others. Still, it's always a possibility.

- Related to the point above, get the military and police of wherever to spread the word to the populace of their houses. It's very easy to associate the word 'Nomad' with trying to scare people, so advise the police (being the primary civilian force in a house) to insert the warnings urging folks to keep vigil and not let down their guard into some of the more personal conversations they have with civilians. It gives the police something to do, and it strengthens your position. If they're reluctant to do this, ask why. It's quite hard to argue against measures, especially ones that have no direct cost, that protect humanity.

- Negotiate with the government. This may sound like a no-brainer, but the more connections to Sirius you have, the more easily those connections can be infiltrated. This is especially true if you negotiate with that police, this navy and that intelligence force. Why do this, when you can negotiate with the Kanzler, the Queen or the Emperor? Those heads of state can tell their armed forces what to do without you needing to get involved, so you only have to have one point of contact, rather than three per house. Yes, this is hard with Rheinland and Bretonia, as neither house has someone playing their head of state.

The movements of a head of state are generally publicized and recorded. Especially true in case of the Queen. even if someone agrees to roleplay figureheads, they wouldn't want to meet with us directly, rather preferring to send their lieutenants and military heads, and then talking to their heads, creating second-hand communication..

- To prevent any of the negotiators being nomad-infested (as a line to deepen roleplay value rather than of any pragmatic importance), have discussions with whoever the point of contact is be preceded by both you and them stepping through a series of nomad detection tests. These tests can be written, but shouldn't be over-elaborated, as they may precede all face-to-face negotiations. I can't imagine the Queen of Bretonia would be all that happy if you demanded she step through a nomad scanner while your guys sat there, confident in their nomadlessness, so join in.



- Indies. I don't mind their silliness, happens everywhere. Best thing to do here is approach the leaders of factions that get the most problems from your indies out of roleplay (say, if they start polluting Rheinland as an example) and say 'look, we can't control them, so if they're a problem, just kill them ok?'. I can't imagine many people objecting to that, as long as they feel you've tried hard to control them and they're just not reacting.

Not everyone holds your opinion.

- Faction players. There's a lot of this rankwhoring stuff, but mostly because some lower ranking Order| think that the secondary fleet are full of idiots and want to put them through their paces (or perhaps just feel powerful). At this point, I can't really provide proof so take it with a grain of salt, but simply reminding newer members that their conduct reflects on the faction they represent, and that they are responsible for the image of the Order| might go a long way. Yes, it's obvious, but people need to be told obvious things sometimes.

As I've mentioned before, this is sad and needs to be corrected.

This would have been a PM, but I want to see if other people agree with me. All of the above is up for debate after all.

[Shryke]

I also don't remember anyone specificly blaming indies for our problems. It's the other way around, Order| is being blamed for all the bad moves of indies.

Really? So if I go back and re-read the thread again, I'll find zero instances of Order| members blaming indies?

Also, Hot Rod, Order having poor leadership is in-RP? That's just about the stupidest thing that ever came out of anyone on this server.

You guys are hopeless.

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[Tommeh]

Really? So if I go back and re-read the thread again, I'll find zero instances of Order| members blaming indies?

Also, Hot Rod, Order having poor leadership is in-RP? That's just about the stupidest thing that ever came out of anyone on this server.

You guys are hopeless.

I didn't said no one blamed indies, I said no one blaimed indies completely and totally, which you stated that we are doing.
And I didn't said either you will find zero instances of Order| members blaiming indies.
You are generalizing stuff to fit your arguments, things are not just black and white.
I am sorry that you think we are hopeless, don't bother posting here anymore here then, since you don't post anything constructive anyway, and we don't need anything else.

Now, looking at the results of this poll, the Order| official faction is nowhere near where it should be, as an official faction. By the looks of it, 80% of the community is not happy with what you are doing/who you are. This should be acted upon, but since this should have been acted upon months and months back, perhaps it is time to let someone else take your place. Y'know, someone who actually has a motivation to do something.

And who would that be, can you point out someone? Who showed interest to help us change something in Order? You think we wouldn't accept help? Pointing out problems is useless if you don't know how to fix them.
Everyone can do that.
If someone would bring up effective solutions, would show initiative and that he can do this job better then us, folks would gladly step down and get rid of obligations.
It's funny how everyone are swift when it needs to point finger at someone, but at anything further from that no one wants to do anything.
Everyone wants changes, no one is willing to work them, and do the easiest thing, blame leadership, while many things can be done by just anyone with some small motivation.

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[Jeremy Hunter]

And who would that be, can you point out someone? Who showed interest to help us change something in Order? You think we wouldn't accept help? Pointing out problems is useless if you don't know how to fix them.
Everyone can do that.
If someone would bring up effective solutions, would show initiative and that he can do this job better then us, folks would gladly step down and get rid of obligations.
It's funny how everyone are swift when it needs to point finger at someone, but at anything further from that no one wants to do anything.
Everyone wants changes, no one is willing to work them, and do the easiest thing, blame leadership, while many things can be done by just anyone with some small motivation.

People can see problems, but dont know how to act.

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May you ever walk in the Light, Shizune.

[McNeo]

Anyone can understand that changes don't all happen at once. Furthermore, the reason people blame the leadership, is because the leadership took it upon themselves, when they became leaders, to bear the responsibility for the success or failure of whatever it is that they lead. That said, I too get very tired when people tell me how to do my job and show absolutely zero motivation to get involved. Another reason that folks may not get involved is because they think that they may be marginalised once they've served their purpose, or may put effort into an initiative that is actually dropped, which makes it a waste of their time. Others are likely to be suspected of pushing their own personal goals into a faction if they get involved (Im pretty sure that would be the suspicion of many if Doc Jameson, for example, showed a great deal of interest in getting involved).

A cynical individual would say that you've had more than enough time already to effect changes that people have been grumbling about for a while now.

But a less hostile view would be that you can actually get the ball rolling on all three fronts (Rheinland, Bretonia, Kusari) by finding three people in your HC who have time and assigning them each a house to cultivate relations with. Assuming your HC is full of people who lack motivation and/or time, push them back into the ranks and find people who do have time. This part is the hardest part, as ideal replacements are always, always thin on the ground. Some individuals are sufficiently intelligent, but prohibitively lazy, whereas others have a huge amount of motivation and interest, but are too prone to mistakes (sometimes serious ones).

Rod, please elaborate on your opinion about indies. Particularly the part where you've built in the concept of damage limitation to the Order's reputation with other houses (which you cant possibly maintain if you don't absolve yourself of responsibility for indies). Bear in mind that I only say indies should be treated this way when there are a large volume of poorly organised players (Liberty, Corsairs... you can see where I got that experience) that refuse to communicate with the official faction. As I percieve it, the Order has a lot of those kinds of independent players, perhaps not by volume, but by play time.

[Jeremy Hunter]

Rod talked with RM yesterday with Omi. They probably would take that front.

That leaves Sly and Anon for the last two.

I like that idea McNeo, each OHC member taking a house to cultivate relations.

But it would be dangerous for an Admiral right off the bat (or a Spartan Commodore), so revising it to messangers to establish it before risking an OHC member would be ideal.

I also will keep asking for tge old Offical/Indie OHC mix like back in the day.

Around the time you flew into my MR when you were Order|Rodent Rod ;)

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May you ever walk in the Light, Shizune.