Is that legal?

[Evan_]

Common sense? Like if a Barghest pilot does that to a Firefly Captain, he's engaged, but if a Starflea demands from the Dreadnought he is not? What if I ask that in a Dagger from the Titanic? Where's the dividing line?

I don't want to nitpick, nor to question Dab's experience or judgement, but he stated that a hostile interaction counts as an engagement in itself. That wouldn't be the first 'unwritten' rule we hear about. I just had to quote a similar one about passing bots and bats not long ago.

But if I accept that, common sense makes me think, that yes, the dread in Aeneid's example -is- fled while docking.

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[EisenSeele]

Use common sense.

The rules are delineated for a reason; because they have to be objective and enforceable. What if it was a bomber that made a pirate demand of a gunboat? If a starflea demanding things from a dread is not valid since the starflea is no threat to the dread, wouldn't the same apply to this situation since balance dictates that a single bomber would have a hard time defeating a gunboat? What is the bomber is good and could have easily taken the gunboat out - making the demand carry weight? Is individual player skill weighed into this?

Having all engagements require only a 50% drop in shield is screenshotable and easily processed - the contexts of who had what with how many other people with the 'I could have taken that out' type of background leads to very large gray areas that would be almost impossible to completely objectively enforce. That, along with the fact that there is no actual rule saying that demands constitute engagements while there is a clear rule stating that 50% shield damage does.

Unwritten rules are only good for matters of courtesy and tradition, and serve no good purpose as a medium for solid rules. If it isn't explicitly stated, one should not be obligated to abide (though there's always that expectation).

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FEEDBACK

[CzeReptile]

yet again we found an interesting loophole in current already broken rules. Way to go community, keep it up so one day, we truly might evne have place where we can use the common sense to at least any degree.

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[dodike]

yet again we found an interesting loophole in current already broken rules. Way to go community, keep it up so one day, we truly might evne have place where we can use the common sense to at least any degree.

That will only work on a server with half a dozen people who are all friends.
Welcome to the internet.

I agree Aeneid. Rules that are not explicitly clear are prone to misinterpretation and rule-lawyering.
Common sense only works if you have been around long time and have read many sanction threads and even then can some ruling from the admins surprise you.
We even had former admins sanctioned because they were unaware that their behavior can be interpreted as piracy.

[Daedric]

Having all engagements require only a 50% drop in shield is screenshotable and easily processed - the contexts

Actually no it isn't. It is fairly easy to have your buddy shoot your shields down and claim self defense.

The 50% shield rule is there so that people know when they are free to defend themselves from an attacker without having to type out role play.

As in, a pirate who stops a trader and is typing his demand, the trader quickly tells him to suck it and opens fire. Once the pirates shields drop below 50% (better screen it!), he is free to kill the trader without making a demand. Problem is, without screening that 50% or less shields the pirate is likely to get burned.

If you don't agree or want an admin's opinion on it. Use the search feature and do some reading. It has been discussed multiple times before. Using common sense also helps, but it seems you don't think so. Ashame that I am quoting an admin when I say that.

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[Kharon]

Pirates being able to pull such "lawcases" is OORP IMHO.

If i wait for Traders in my filled Hegemon, right at my local Mining Station, a Pirate can "RP-kill" me by just comming near and pull an OORP demand?

In the moment he is "near me"?

Why can a Pirate demand something when he never has any chance, with me in 1-second-to-docking-situation or even only very, very close to my Faction´s station, to realize his demand ever, in the first place?

You wont give Miners any real chance to defend themselves, aka no Gunboats and only some of the clumsiest two Bombers generaly capable of mining! (See my threat Gunboat class miner (for all lawful mining IDs)). You infact support a directive like:

"Economic and Industrial equipment is not meant for combat",
(stated, supported and cited multiple there)

..yet you treat them as "equal" in pvp, unlike Transports!

You are thereby infact violating a much higher and more meaningfull rule:
"This should be fun for everyone"

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[Ayatolah]

Pirates being able to pull such "lawcases" is OORP IMHO.

If i wait for Traders in my filled Hegemon, right at my local Mining Station, a Pirate can "RP-kill" me by just comming near and pull an OORP demand?

Why can a Pirate demand something when he never has any chance, with me in 1-second-to-docking-situation, to realize his demand ever, in the first place?

You wont give Miners any real chance to defend themselves, aka no Gunboats and only some of the clumsiest two Bombers generaly capable of mining! (See my threat Gunboat class miner (for all lawful mining IDs)). You infact support a directive like:

"Economic and Industrial equipment is not meant for combat",
(stated, supported and cited multiple there)

..yet you treat them as "equal" in pvp, unlike Transports!

You are thereby infact violating a much higher and more meaningfull rule:
"This should be fun for everyone"

dude, for that kind of things, exists the mercenaries.... not to mention that certain mining factios has their own combat line for the same reason, protection of the mining ships, you have that "void" you say covered, you just don't see it... I have seen many mercenaries looking for job... and no one giving...

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[Kharon]

dude, for that kind of things, exists the mercenaries.... not to mention that certain mining factios has their own combat line for the same reason, protection of the mining ships, you have that "void" you say covered, you just don't see it... I have seen many mercenaries looking for job... and no one giving...

No, that doesnt work realy and your simply stating nonsense. You may find Mercenaries and Escorts in New York but there are non in Rheinland.

Anyway, you evaded my Points!

#1 One cannot fairly demand via "pvp"-rules that a Daumann Hegemon (my Example) stands his Ground against any Pirate "military" vessel, because the Hegemon does not have any chance of survival. Miners are equal Traders and should be treated alike.

#2 With given Szenario (See picture above Daumann/Omega7) and in this discussion curent supported rule layout any Daumann Hegemon will be infact declared "pvp-dead" without chance the moment a Pirate jumps into the system.

#3 This "RP-killing" via "pvp-rule-dogmatics" is totaly OORP. A Pirate cannot rob nor kill me when i can dock in a second but you magicaly provide him with that "ability" with your rule-layout.


Now i realy wonder what your "Idea of Balance" realy is, seeing the facts that, for example in Rheinland, Pirates already have the by far biggest and most stable Factions and in contrary official laweful Factions keep getting warnings about factionstatus revoked or realy get revoked. Yet your server rules layout now push that balance even further over the edge in favor for Pirates (by "magical" ability of "pirate lawesuites" enforced by the "A.D.M.I.N.S.", aka RP-Kill in 1 sec from 6k away i should add (Thats your idea of RP? Realy??)).

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[Hielor]

Make it so that once your ship is damaged by another player, repairing it takes time (even if you used nanobots), and you can't launch until you're repaired.

Then, get rid of the docking=death rule, because it won't be needed anymore.

Also, people telling miners/traders to "get a mercenary"--why is it that if a pirate fails to kill a minerbefore he gets to the dock, you don't tell him to "get a mercenary"? Because the miner's dead anyway. The rules really favor the aggressor in this case.

[Ayatolah]

Make it so that once your ship is damaged by another player, repairing it takes time (even if you used nanobots), and you can't launch until you're repaired.

Then, get rid of the docking=death rule, because it won't be needed anymore.

Also, people telling miners/traders to "get a mercenary"--why is it that if a pirate fails to kill a minerbefore he gets to the dock, you don't tell him to "get a mercenary"? Because the miner's dead anyway. The rules really favor the aggressor in this case.

you didn't catch my point, i was talking about general mining places, is obvious that in case of the DAumann O7-11 is clearly a problem, he said that miners are unprotected, and no one does nothing to change that when in truth, he can do that, hire mercenaries...

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