that topic can be closed now - the tone of one of the moderators got a bit too hostile.for my taste - i usually abstain from personal attacks - but that is why i have you on ignore mostly - and keep ignoring you on the dev board, dab. - your tone simply is too hostile - too self absorbed.
the first 40 posts are very constructive indeed ( plus / minus one or two ) - the following ones became mostly throwing insults and accusations around. - not too constructive - but being a good example of the profound grief.
from what it seems - the majority hasn t got such a problem with how the zoner faction is run. - a few do have problems, but from what it looks like, there really are not too many ppl disagreeing. - with the quoted key member being the only one that brought up real critizism maybe it can be solved in a dialogue rather than a public discussion.
@chooper: i didn t wanne bring up the AW ... cause i figure it would mark me as a dinosaur of disco remembering all the drama about it:laugh:- good to know i m not the only one remembering.
' Wrote:Personally, I dont dislike the omicroners, and dont hate them. For who are you speaking there?
You know, you could apply the "every person sources their own fate and if people hate you you MUST have done something" to anyone and anything... even the way some people feel about some moderators, admins, and devs. Its kind of a hollow argument. So if I hate someone, its automatically their fault?
I don't hate the Omicroners, but I'm among those who feel that their idea of Zoner roleplay and how they conduct themselves on the forums isn't quite on the mark. Dab pretty much covered my reasons why too.
Aaaaaannnnndddd this is a discussion about Zoners. I actually think we're having a decent one for once and we've got some ideas and feelings that are being aired out fairly calmly. If you'd please, don't turn this thread into a slap to the administration team.
Here's why you (the Omicroners mainly, not the TAZ and OSI) disliked as a group, as far as I can see:
You're arrogant, aggressive and egotistical, whether this is purely restricted to within RP realms or not is a matter of opinion. But those traits are exactly what would get a group like the Zoners in trouble, and when you cause trouble, you as a faction may be able to hide away in O74, but other Zoners, especially indies, can't. You also have developed a habit of complaining when things don't go your way, in an OORP sense, this thread being a typical example, it's a complaint (directed at people who dislike you) thinly hidden behind a question, which doesn't endear you to many (if any) people. And all the whining about Corsair RP in the past few pages pretty much highlights the problem.
The other factions seem to just keep their heads down and not get involved in stuff, they deal with complaints against them diplomatically and generally try to keep people happy. This is what Zoners should be doing to avoid getting on the wrong end of large groups our houses. I mean, hell, even Cam, who always seemed ready to pick fights, was/is able to maintain stability at Freeport 11, he even managed to resolve a conflict between the Core and the Zoners through diplomacy.
So, if you don't want people to hate you, be more open and accepting, learn to be diplomats, as you've already tried learning to be warriors and that didn't get you very far. Basically, ask the TAZ and OSI how they manage to keep their diplomacy so nicely intact, and when someone questions or criticises you, do not immediately start whining or insulting them, accept what they say, even if it may appear hostile, and take it on board as advice on what you should/should not do.
Also, I'll just mention here that the Corsairs are not, and never were dependent on Zoner supplies. We survived for hundreds of years before FP9 and FP5 popped up, and while OSI and others still supply us with food, so do the Hogosha, IND, AFA and Junkers, as well as Samura, the biggest corporation in Sirius. Also, those deals date back to long before the conflict, go find the first Samura - Corsair comm threads and you'll see what I mean. So no, we didn't change our RP and try to rewrite history just to kill some Omicroners.
Oh and for the record, while I think some of the stuff you have done is hilariously ridiculous, and I very much enjoyed our conflicts, as I got to blow lots of stuff up, I do not inherently dislike you as a group, so don't assume what I have said above is said out of hatred or spite.
' Wrote:Don't know where you've got this information from, but it's not applying to the ZTC. We've made food supplies with three, sometimes even four or five Whales about five times a weak, over a longer period of time. The effect: Being confronted with such forged facts. Do we have to throw around with screenshots just to testify how forged the pseudo-rp reasons of the Corsair players were?
Also, it's complete nonsense to expect in-game roleplay in every timezone by every group. Ironically those who are crying loudest about missing food supplies are especially those who weren't never playing in our timezone. Nobody's fault, but also no argument at all. Exploiting this fact is a pathetic example for powergaming and, to take if further, anti-social behaviour.
Lou, what you're doing is blaming the Corsairs for not seeing you. How is it their responsibility to know you're trading food to Crete? Is it not the responsibility of the deliverer to make sure the recipient of his goods knows those goods were delivered? This is why expensive packages shipped these days require signatures on delivery. You should have been keeping a communication channel log filled with screenshots and logs of the supply deliveries. To blame the Corsairs for not being in your timezone is rather poor behavior.
' Wrote:Nah, the problem is that some cannot stand the fact that there's quite a group of players on this server, and believe me that it's not only the Omicroners, who are not tempted to polish some preferable apples for the sake of some crappy benefit of not being targetted by lolwut raids. The basic problem here might be as well that there's abolsutely no list one could use to know who of these inventory players demand that sacrifice to compensate other stuff actually nobody can be aware of.
Lou, you're trying to insult other people and claim they have a conspiracy against you, because they don't like it when you're rude? You're being rude right now. I don't like it. So I'm in a conspiracy against you because of it? No. While I'm responding politely, the roleplay of some factions, that would not be considered normal. If you're rude and arrogant to the Corsairs like you're being rude and arrogant to me and others with this paragraph, of course they are going to shoot you. No one likes someone who is rude to them. It's not a conspiracy. It's not because you're upsetting the established order of things. It's natural human reaction. People don't like people who are rude. Continue to be rude and you'll continue getting this response, and that goes for the real world as well. The Corsairs taking offense at your behavior is actually a superb show of roleplay, considering it's spot-on with how a real human being would react.
' Wrote:Actually, what for? For their own faults? Sure, everybody likes that of course, but you've also explained why it shouldn't happen:
What about your pride? You've taken what I said and used it to make the Corsairs look bad, but you've completely ignored any involvement of yourself. You're trying to throw attention on others to make yourself look better. This is exactly what I meant when I posted it. It's natural. But it also causes problems. You can't fix those problems until you can admit to yourself and others what you did wrong. Ignore what the Corsairs did wrong. You can only control your own actions. If you do everything you can to fix the problem, if you take responsibility, and the Corsairs ignore you, insult you, etc, than blame is placed squarely on their shoulders, and everyone will see it. However, what you're doing now is avoiding responsibility, which doesn't gain you respect, acceptance, or empathy.
' Wrote:That's the reason of this permanent forging. First there was a clear miscalculation of the own limits on Corsair side, then any means the Corsair players could summon failed, and in the end the situation has worsened to an extent where they have perverted the known RP. All of that without even a justifiable goal inRP. But still everybody's wondering why I'm calling this crap.
There is no permanent forging Lou. Corsairs raised an issue on how you conduct yourselves, you denied it, but had no evidence to support your claims, they insisted, you were rude, they were rude back, escalated. The problem isn't they forging things, the problem was you not documenting your actions. not establishing contracts with the Corsairs, etc. Notice that other Zoners did do this and the Corsairs did not try to kill them. Take an example from them. There are three Zoner factions and only one was targeted.. That should tell you that you did something wrong and the other two did something right. There is nothing wrong from learning from each other.
The Corsairs have not perverted the known RP. They've even given a plethora of infocards, all Vanilla, that justified their roleplay. You disregarded it, ignored it. That's why you are getting this response. Of course people are angry with you. You keep trying to blame someone for something that everyone else has already seen proof was justified. As long as you ignore that, you'll continue having problems with other factions and players.
What people are wondering, is why you are blinding yourself. The longer you persist in this willful blindness, the worse you make yourself look in people's eyes.
' Wrote:Sure, it wasn't really fair to play the roles against Zoner characters because passivity, an important aspect of Zoner RP, is the best option to make decisions, but while they were escalating further and further without being able to reach their goals they still had enough opportunities to back off. In the aftermath of their own failures it's pretty ridiculous how fact are being forged. Okay, I consider this to be the last thing anybody can do when screwing up things.
What failures? You keep alluding to failures, to forgeries, to problems the Corsairs made. But you give no evidence for this. And what about the problems you made? What about your failures. What you need to do is stop looking at what everyone else is doing and look at yourself. You can control yourself, you can't control others. You can waste time arguing with people, or you can spend time on what can actually be changed.
' Wrote:Of course they did, and I'm sure that mostly those who thought they could reach their own satisfaction through senseless powergaming suiting oorp motives must be pretty annoyed to see the result of their own doings. There wasn't the slightest idea of RP when the Corsair factions denied any forum RP at the time when the [A] started to enjoy their bandwagon. The initial mistake that was made by this, and it wasn't Zoners' or Omicroners'.
The only powergaming I saw was when the Corsairs "bombarded and destroyed Freeport 9", which was quickly removed by the moderators as such, and Corsairs were told not to make those threads again.
The Corsairs, while harsh, did roleplay the situation out. The OOC came into it when Zoners started making threads to complain about what was happening. Why would so many people comment on the Zoner Q_Q threads if the Zoners didn't make them? They wouldn't. Zoners did, accept it, move on.
' Wrote:The funny thing about it is that the vast majority is relying on hearsay. Or call it "neat" if you like.
Okay, what's going to come next? Just to give me something to laugh about. The demand to pay their ISP costs?
You're countering their hearsay (though most of their actions were backed up by infocards and roleplay) by using your own hearsay; That being that you were sending them food all the time.. But you have no evidence to show this. You're asking people to trust your words over the Corsairs', and the Corsairs had a lot more RP and Lore to back up their claims.
' Wrote:Nah, cannot work. Those making the first mistake have to make the first real step to a mending of relations. Anything else is inacceptable. If we'd have screwed something rp wise I'd be the first to acknowledge the ncessity of this step, but all of this wasn't happening based on RP ;-)
Again, you're ignoring any of your own mistakes. You're throwing blame on others again. This is what people are fed up with. Admit to your mistakes and move on, or stay in denial and problems will continue to arise.
' Wrote:Of course there is a perfect reaction - it's PLAYING the role, instead of hiding behind a pixelhunter bandwagon.
I understand completely that nobody likes to be confronted with his or her own mistakes but we had to apply this method in order to draw a clear line what we allow other players to do based on oorp intentions. So, I for myself understand the nature, the scope and the motives of such blames completely.
Lou, and there are many threads to back this up, the Corsairs DID play their role. Pretty extensively. They showed lore to back up their actions. The Zoners made threads on the forums to complain about it. You're blaming a faction for something they didn't do... You did.
' Wrote:But we are not going to correct a wrong with another. It's not worth it ;-)
That's right. You'll correct a wrong with a right. And right in this case, means accepting responsibility for your own actions, not complaining about others'.
' Wrote:Personally, I dont dislike the omicroners, and dont hate them. For who are you speaking there?
You know, you could apply the "every person sources their own fate and if people hate you you MUST have done something" to anyone and anything... even the way some people feel about some moderators, admins, and devs. Its kind of a hollow argument. So if I hate someone, its automatically their fault?
Fault? No. Did they play a factor in everything that happens to them? Yes.
' Wrote:that topic can be closed now - the tone of one of the moderators got a bit too hostile.for my taste - i usually abstain from personal attacks - but that is why i have you on ignore mostly - and keep ignoring you on the dev board, dab. - your tone simply is too hostile - too self absorbed.
the first 40 posts are very constructive indeed ( plus / minus one or two ) - the following ones became mostly throwing insults and accusations around. - not too constructive - but being a good example of the profound grief.
I've not insulted anyone in this thread, nor made accusations. You asked four questions, I answered them in an honest and very polite manner. Let me know which passages you feel weren't polite.
I'm not going to get into another Corsair vs Zoner argument though. I'll respond to anything that isn't about that, there are plenty of older threads that cover that issue extensively.
Well, the Corsairs are always mentioned in these discussions, because they seem to be the biggest opponents of the Zoners since the craziness last year. I'm not going to argue it, but i will say this.
As a Zoner indie, and now a freeport admin, im paying for the RP between the Corsairs and 'Croners. I was told inrp that no corsair would respect any freeport nfz, ever. While the Black Sails actually have a valid reason for persecuting Dane, i talked with Espi, and he forgot all about it. Corsairs dont just hate the Omicroners - they take out their anti zoner sentiment on any zoner they come across.
As said, im paying for it. But do i disagree with where the Zoners are right now? not in the slightest. The things that have happened, have naturally evolved over the course of years to become the way they are now. the ZTC was once what people consider "zoner like" but then got torched by [A]sshatery. Thus, they've become a belligerent, rude, militaristic bunch that have made there stand, and dont much care if they are liked or disliked. I personally, find the "this-far-no-farther" rp aspect of the Omicroners pretty heroic and romantic. but thats my own feelings on it.
I dont think the zoners have "messed up" in any way other then their political choices and reactions. while a part of me agrees with Dab about the fact that zoner neutrality should be the best used zoner tool - and in the case of the OSI and TAZ, they are and do use it. By rp, and the nature of human pride, apologizing to the corsairs would never work - being that corsair rp is "were superior to everyone" they would take an apology and demand an incredible amount of humility and humiliation from the Croners for it. when both sides think they are right, and the other is wrong - there will never be any compromise.
Zoners are fine. the current politics suck, but player choice got us here, and maybe player choice will get us out. either way, weve come this far. Im not about to advocate we turn back now.
Oh yeah, and yes, im biased. the Zoner side of things is where ive planted my flag. I do not have, and probably never will have any Corsair characters. My experiences with [A] have been none at all, but ive read through the thread graves, and ive got some measure of things. Anyone who wishes to disregard any section of my post because of these points, is free to do so - its all opinion anyway
' Wrote:I would say, that since the Zoners left the house space in order to escape it's laws and regulations, the official and even indie factions still operate on the same basis as, say, the RM or LN.
I always thought of the Zoners much like the LR, a loose organized group, freedom and a total disconcern for any laws, smuggling, trading, hunting. But it is also how the ID is presented, it does not allow as much freedom as it should have.
Small organized groups are fine, but when you have whole factions, who have direct control over stations, laws and capital ships, it falls rather odd.
' Wrote:1) Not nessesarily 'screwing up', but they've changed the Zoners from what they really were in Vanilla. The TAZ are recluses and the OSI act fine. What isn't fine is the [)c(] / [)o(] portrayal of the Omicron Zoners and the introduction of Zoner Capital ships. You're lovely people and all, but you've changed the meaning of Zoner quite a bit.
2) The Zoners are just people who aren't too big on house laws and like to live in anarchy, in a fragile political system where no one can tell them what to do.
Furthermore, the Zoners are lovely and all, but they shouldn't have capital ships, or any kinds of ships really. Perhaps a couple of small ones, which are fairly open market, but not massive warships.
Zoners shouldn't be cowardly pacifists like you make them out to be, if someone messes around in their space, they kick them out with force, if someone breaks one of their few, loose laws, they shoot them.
The Zoners also shouldn't hump the leg of the Order so much, as the Nomads aren't actually too interested in the Zoners. The Nomads are actually on the defensive in the Nomad-Order conflict, it's the Zoners who throw the punches by assosiating with the Order and making themselves targets.
3) Stop being so rude and protective of your space, no offense. Get violent every now and again, enforce your survival by being the baddest motherloves in the area, not by asking politely. People shouldn't look at the threat of the [)o(] attacking them and piss themselves laughing, nor should you hide behind Faction Right 5. Then again, learn the balance and apolagise where needed, so Corsair fleets don't rain down on you again, for example.
Cut down on the capital ships, sorry indies, but they're really stupid and just make you a threat to those around you, and not the good kind, it makes people nervous. What need have Zoners for warships anyway, it's already proven that capital ships are an offensive tool, snubs are a superior defensive force. Which brings me to the next point.
Stop assosiating with the Order so closely. Currently the Zoners are the only real ally of the Order, and the Order have a lot of enemies. The Nomads have no interest in you if you just leave them alone, the Zoners shouldn't care if the Nomads were a threat to humanity anyway, they live on the fringes of space to escape the bullcrap of humanity, not encourage it. You're just sticking your hand in a fire for no real reason on this one.
Firstly, for Akura only, you have the tag wrong. Past that, I cannot be bothered explaing Omicroner-Order| alliances, so everyone can enjoy the generic response.
' Wrote:Zoner Capital Ships:
Guess what? This is not another Zoner thread. Idiots will not know this, so we will preface with that.
I decided to think, and so I wondered. What did I wonder about? Zoner capital ships. You probably wondered about them too.
Recently, people who understand how to press the right click button of the mouse and hold it down for several seconds proposed that Zoners should not have capital ships. (It seems that Supernovas and Novas are too much of an imaginary fiscal expense in their lovely lives, which leads us to question how they have enough time to post on the forums, as opposed to do one trade run in this brilliant economy.)
The arguments proposed were that Zoners did not have the resources, namely the credits or materials to produce capital ships. Another one proposed was that the time between Zoners having capital ships and not having them was too short. All other arguments proposed were the usual dribble of bias and so on. (If there are any others, please PM or Skype me and I will modify this post to include a counter for them.)
So, I looked forth from the bridge of my Rheinland Cruiser and it hit me. How did this ship get produced? Was Rheinland not on the brink of material ruin? Finance depleted, leader killed and all resources drained? In 17 years they got money, resources and a "leader". Amazing. How did they do so?
I do not truly know, but Rheinland is kind of fun the way it is now.
I decided to move to the Omicrons and I got scared; mainly by the Outcasts, which are infinitely better than the Corsairs, and their collective, gargantuan amount of capital ships. The Outcasts and Corsairs both pirate, both trade, one in Cardamine and one in artifacts, and apart from that one has food problems and the other has sex problems. Seventeen years ago the Sabre and Titan were the magnum opus in Sirius ship-building for these pirate factions. That was it. The end of the line.
I shrugged it off. They are fun. The Corsair GB has horns and the OC Destroyer smiled at me, so I thought the whole thing was swell and I moved on.
I turned my head to the left and behold The Order came into sight. An organisation only recently formed with a full loadout of ships, including capital ships. I thought about it and I figure their agents covertly extracted funds out of whatever organisation they infiltrated, and that their alliance with the Corsairs, another faction who also magically formed capitals, paid off well. That or their research allowed them to make a lot of ships quickly. Or certain alliances The Order made funded them quite well.
The quick flow of thoughts made me push it all away and concentrate on the issue at hand.
I squinted and looked at the Zoners. Centuries of trading. Endless resources in the area they inhibit. No known intelligent enemies to hinder their growth. An RP which consists heavily of trading. An alliance with The Order and hence resources to higher order technology. An alliance with the GMG which results in lower fuel prices.
So, now I sat atop Tekagi's Arch, which was magically fixed after the explosion which would have taken out most of the interior, the expected raids by Blood Dragons and bombardment by the Kusari Naval Forces, and repopulated by Aoi Isejin which managed to sneak past the two aforementioned factions, as well as the GMG and agents of The Order.
While I was atop this Arch I reflected on why this was, that is, why certain factions have capital ships. I guess it is because capital ships make the game fun without altering too much, especially since they can easily be taken down by two bombers.
I also figure for those who are inclined to depress and hold the right-click button of the mouse, since other actions are a tad to complex for them, they need something else. That is something new to see and unleash their fury on. I propose that the Whale and other 5k's got boring and they wanted something new. After all, when all you have is the mouse, you need to see something new on the screen no?
' Wrote:You sir, being an biased member of zoner faction you'r talking about, just fear to face the tence and consequences of ingame\forum rp decitions made. This is not the secret that zoners where threating corsairs and then calling half'o'sirius to save their arses on nine. All words about that were told before, so I'm not going to talk of it again. Then about the Core involvement - you called an Order ships to pew pew sairs, so core went in to pew pew on order caps because of good fact them being far from isis.
Yes, and your forum profile says you are from Leon Base so obviously you are dirty Corsair with a stupid, biased opinion. Right.
Frankly, The Omicroners moreso than any other faction has faced consequences of pseudo-RP in-game crap. Vanilla suggests that calling in Outcasts and Corsair enemies to re-balance the threat is within vanilla lore. The Core incident happened because the Core decided to demand nomad remains from a Zoner at Freeport 11, and no doubt some OOC things moreso too. Your opinion is invalid on the issue using your earlier logic, whereby as you own a BHG| character you are biased and fear the consequences of forum posting.:cool:
' Wrote:I do, however, believe that we need to reign in on the technology available to us. I'm not opposed to seeing Jinkusus or Aquilons in the game, but I do think they need to be turned into ships requiring special permission to use. Those ships were intended to be colony ships to spread and aid Zoner research. While there are a good number of people roleplaying mobile Freeports and doing good things with their Zoner Battleships, we have just as many beating the war drums and advancing with them on other groups. That's not what a Zoner would do. Cam is probably the only person who I feel comfortable with roleplaying a warship Jinkusu, as he's done significant work in and around Delta to support it.
Every single Jinkusu that wars without adequate RP reason has faced sufficient consequences. There is a system which works in place now.
' Wrote:I don't hate the Omicroners, but I'm among those who feel that their idea of Zoner roleplay and how they conduct themselves on the forums isn't quite on the mark. Dab pretty much covered my reasons why too.
Aaaaaannnnndddd this is a discussion about Zoners. I actually think we're having a decent one for once and we've got some ideas and feelings that are being aired out fairly calmly. If you'd please, don't turn this thread into a slap to the administration team.
Explain which part of Zoner lore and or role-play The Omicroners did not follow, instead of making such a sweeping statement which is not constructive?
' Wrote:Here's why you (the Omicroners mainly, not the TAZ and OSI) disliked as a group, as far as I can see:
You're arrogant, aggressive and egotistical, whether this is purely restricted to within RP realms or not is a matter of opinion. But those traits are exactly what would get a group like the Zoners in trouble, and when you cause trouble, you as a faction may be able to hide away in O74, but other Zoners, especially indies, can't. You also have developed a habit of complaining when things don't go your way, in an OORP sense, this thread being a typical example, it's a complaint (directed at people who dislike you) thinly hidden behind a question, which doesn't endear you to many (if any) people. And all the whining about Corsair RP in the past few pages pretty much highlights the problem.
The other factions seem to just keep their heads down and not get involved in stuff, they deal with complaints against them diplomatically and generally try to keep people happy. This is what Zoners should be doing to avoid getting on the wrong end of large groups our houses. I mean, hell, even Cam, who always seemed ready to pick fights, was/is able to maintain stability at Freeport 11, he even managed to resolve a conflict between the Core and the Zoners through diplomacy.
So, if you don't want people to hate you, be more open and accepting, learn to be diplomats, as you've already tried learning to be warriors and that didn't get you very far. Basically, ask the TAZ and OSI how they manage to keep their diplomacy so nicely intact, and when someone questions or criticises you, do not immediately start whining or insulting them, accept what they say, even if it may appear hostile, and take it on board as advice on what you should/should not do.
Also, I'll just mention here that the Corsairs are not, and never were dependent on Zoner supplies. We survived for hundreds of years before FP9 and FP5 popped up, and while OSI and others still supply us with food, so do the Hogosha, IND, AFA and Junkers, as well as Samura, the biggest corporation in Sirius. Also, those deals date back to long before the conflict, go find the first Samura - Corsair comm threads and you'll see what I mean. So no, we didn't change our RP and try to rewrite history just to kill some Omicroners.
Oh and for the record, while I think some of the stuff you have done is hilariously ridiculous, and I very much enjoyed our conflicts, as I got to blow lots of stuff up, I do not inherently dislike you as a group, so don't assume what I have said above is said out of hatred or spite.
This thread is a question to garner feedback. Avoid straw manning the question into a complaint so you can formulate some semblance of a post.
Lodging a complaint is permissible. It is allowed.
Corsair "RP" is what essentially made the ZTC to Omicroner RP transition. Not mentioning it would be stupid.
As you infer, this is not a thread about Corsairs. Corsairs are only mentioned to make a reference to an RP transition. No-one cares about how much or how little Corsair are or are not starving on Crete or any other rock they live in or on.
Note: No complaints in this post about following Zoner lore or role-play.
And lastly, this is towards Jinx. Honestly, you should have known better. Lou, you too. This thread does nothing. All you will get is the usual Zoner players getting their voices in about how things are fine, OSI- players taking potshots, Corsair and BHG players laughing in our face and criticising us instead of actually offering an OoRP compromise or anything of the like and Dab platforming.
And everybody is taking things personal once again.
I think the Zoners is a faction with a lot of freedom, and that having 3 Zoner factions allow each of them to act in different ways, it's not like the 3 of them must represent the whole NPC faction, I don't see anything wrong if one group decides to go a bit aside of what a Zoner is supposed to be (If we can ever agree on what a Zoner is supposed to be).
EDIT: I actually see Zoners like backstabbing, obsesive controllers, house-hating, treacherous people, but that's just me, their Neutrality could be just a shade, being "neutral" is so different from being neutral.
I believe I was referring to the your use of the word "stupid'. Don't care much for calling people bias either, but I'm not going to step in for that one.
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