Ya'll know I have initiated some "politically charged" role play and it is to get political dynamics more involved in the game for all--not just military ones.
The Junker Congress is a political group with a military arm (Junker Guards) but politics is what it is all about. The military serves NO purpose but as an extension of the politics.
I am getting a lot of comment and observation from Junkers and non-Junkers on such things as a Corsair "governor" at Yanagi, appointing staff to specific Junker stations, etc. and am noticing some common themes. Thought I'd point them out with some comment and comparison for the reflection of all.
The responses fall in basically four categories:
Ok--I get it and am in!
You are making me angry 'cause I ain't role playing that way.
Yay! An excuse to field my cap ships!
Meh? I just wanna power trade and pirate.
In the first category, total hats off to Laowai and the Corsair elders. Their first response was to actually initiate diplomacy to obtain their goals--rather than simply "dispatch a fleet". I think some of the best writing comes out of their meetings.
The "dialogue" was authentic, to the point and reflected actual, logical decision making. It showcased characters without burying everyone in tons of personal detail. In short, the "meetings" actually produced an effect, were to the point were in essence genuine conversations--they had a point.
In the second point I like Tenacity (Thorn) standing up for his group, the Junker's Union but take the personal heat out of the reponses please. Mixing OOC and IC attitudes and feelings is my biggest beef in role play on Discover. Sometimes people don't realize it makes it really impossible to respond to the character when it is done. Old Steel did the same thing--did not like the role play of several parties and went on a homicidal shooting spree in--of course--a cap ship.
The Dragons--I realize they are disorganized but I have made several attempts to network with them and really have no response. I'd love to hear from a real Dragon group that wants to rp politics in Sigma 13.
So of course, knowing that a Corsair adjudicator would raise Outcast eyebrows and wanting diplomacy with the Dragons, I had fully planned on diplomacy with the Outcasts. From them I have the "You will die dog!" response.
For such a dramatic (for them) event, I expected to immediately be contacted (as I had been by the Corsairs). Instead, I've had a parade of independent and other Outcast ships come by and make, "You are gonna die boy!" comments. Warships park over the base looking to provoke a fight and I get a lot of veiled threats--but no comment directly from any Outcast leadership. I actually had already prepared to make concession with them when I made the appointment but they sadly skipped the "political" part.
In the mind of the Junker politician, "Vladimir Tinkerbell", this is about Junker sovereignty...the ability for Junkers to be self-determining in forming their own government. To show they can make unilateral decisions and don't have to "do what they are told and shut up". It is very much like the US standing up to Britain over British ships "press ganging" US sailors into the British navy after the Revolutionary War.
Tinkerbell believes Junkers can appoint representatives to administer their own affairs without having coercion from other parties--that it is an essential part of Junker freedom and independence. So this is a political issue to him--not an "excuse to start a cap ship war".
Many Junkers have asked me to field cap ships and start actively attacking those harassing us at Yanagi and I have told them to wait a diplomatic solution. They need to see diplomatic dialogue between us and other groups to know that is happening. As a Junker "leader" (of sorts) I am charged with maintaining traditional Junker allegiances--I can't afford to bend to far one way or the other and must try to represent all sides as best possible. So I wouldn't "in character" pick Corsairs over Outcasts (or vice-versa).
But overall, our faction is seeking to firmly establish the principle of Junker independence--while still maintaining its traditional relationships with other groups--but Junker interests come first!
Just thought I'd detail that some as it might help others in deciding how to respond to us in role play..
' Wrote:Ya'll know I have initiated some "politically charged" role play and it is to get political dynamics more involved in the game for all--not just military ones.
The Junker Congress is a political group with a military arm (Junker Guards) but politics is what it is all about. The military serves NO purpose but as an extension of the politics.
I am getting a lot of comment and observation from Junkers and non-Junkers on such things as a Corsair "governor" at Yanagi, appointing staff to specific Junker stations, etc. and am noticing some common themes. Thought I'd point them out with some comment and comparison for the reflection of all.
The responses fall in basically four categories:
Ok--I get it and am in!
You are making me angry 'cause I ain't role playing that way.
Yay! An excuse to field my cap ships!
Meh? I just wanna power trade and pirate.
In the first category, total hats off to Laowai and the Corsair elders. Their first response was to actually initiate diplomacy to obtain their goals--rather than simply "dispatch a fleet". I think some of the best writing comes out of their meetings.
The "dialogue" was authentic, to the point and reflected actual, logical decision making. It showcased characters without burying everyone in tons of personal detail. In short, the "meetings" actually produced an effect, were to the point were in essence genuine conversations--they had a point.
In the second point I like Tenacity (Thorn) standing up for his group, the Junker's Union but take the personal heat out of the reponses please. Mixing OOC and IC attitudes and feelings is my biggest beef in role play on Discover. Sometimes people don't realize it makes it really impossible to respond to the character when it is done. Old Steel did the same thing--did not like the role play of several parties and went on a homicidal shooting spree in--of course--a cap ship.
The incident with Oldsteel was actually RP'd out. Only problem was when he decided to re-engage 12 times...
Quote:The Dragons--I realize they are disorganized but I have made several attempts to network with them and really have no response. I'd love to hear from a real Dragon group that wants to rp politics in Siga 13.
Agreed would be cool if they was involved.
Quote:So of course, knowing that a Corsair adjudicator would raise Outcast eyebrows and wanting diplomacy with the Dragons, I had fully planned on diplomacy with the Outcasts. From them I have the "You will die dog!" response.
For such a dramatic (for them) event, I expected to immediately be contacted (as I had been by the Corsairs). Instead, I've had a parade of independent and other Outcast ships come by and make, "You are gonna die boy!" comments. Warships park over the base looking to provoke a fight and I get a lot of veiled threats--but no comment directly from any Outcast leadership. I actually had already prepared to make concession with them when I made the appointment but they sadly skipped the "political" part.
Uhh.. I know I made at least 2 posts concerning this in a diplomatic fashion. You musta of missed it?
Quote:In the mind of the Junker politician, "Vladimir Tinkerbell", this is about Junker sovereignty...the ability for Junkers to be self-determining in forming their own government. To show they can make unilateral decisions and don't have to "do what they are told and shut up". It is very much like the US standing up to Britain over British ships "press ganging" US sailors into the British navy after the Revolutionary War.
Tinkerbell believes Junkers can appoint representatives to administer their own affairs without having coercion from other parties--that it is an essential part of Junker freedom and independence. So this is a political issue to him--not an "excuse to start a cap ship war".
Yes I see appointing people over stations in your RP, & Is actually a cool idea & story line, But staying with in a story line, you appoint a corsair over a base in a outcast major trade lane & pirating area.. you was pretty much begging for a conflict. Wise move would have been to appoint a Junker over a junker base thus keeping with the neutrality of both sides.
Quote:Many Junkers have asked me to field cap ships and start actively attacking those harassing us at Yanagi and I have told them to wait a diplomatic solution. They need to see diplomatic dialogue between us and other groups to know that is happening. As a Junker "leader" (of sorts) I am charged with maintaining traditional Junker allegiances--I can't afford to bend to far one way or the other and must try to represent all sides as best possible. So I wouldn't "in character" pick Corsairs over Outcasts (or vice-versa).
Actually not a bad idea.. Junker Guard patrols bases that are Junker controlled, would increase Rp & would show the Junkers have control of their properties.
Quote:But overall, our faction is seeking to firmly establish the principle of Junker independence--while still maintaining its traditional relationships with other groups--but Junker interests come first!
Just thought I'd detail that some as it might help others in deciding how to respond to us in role play..
Still like the idea of your group becoming an official faction & hope you get it, the role play thus far has been fun & gave my group something new & challenging to do.
You get a Corsair to be adjudicator in Sigma-13 at Yanagi. Well first, that Corsair regularly struts about in his Corsair Gunboat, then when he sees enemies, he hops on to his Order Osiris and kills them, then goes back to his gunboat so he can find targets without getting shot, by protecting himself with this 'neutral' shield.
Second, you want Outcasts to be diplomatic with you. Let me say this against. You get a Corsair to be adjudicator in Sigma-13, rather than using one of your own, a Junker. That defeats the entire purpose of diplomacy. Would the USA hire some diplomat from France to do all of its foreign diplomacy? I think not, they would use an American diplomat. Your a Junker who called in a Corsair for your diplomacy. I don't know what was in your mind when you thought of that, but that is NOT diplomacy. Thats begging the Outcasts to disagree with you, so you have something to complain about them for. First, we see this Corsair in Sigma-13.. Well, Outcasts are at full blown war with them. How are we supposed to react when you choose one to protect your interests in Sigma-13? With disdain, contempt, and lasers. No matter the circumstances, if its Corsair IDd and tagged in Sigma-13, its going to get killed by the Outcasts. They don't care if its working with the Junkers or not. You want to have some politics with us, than YOU do it, not send some Corsair to do it so he can switch to a battleship everytime he finds an enemy.
Quote:So of course, knowing that a Corsair adjudicator would raise Outcast eyebrows and wanting diplomacy with the Dragons, I had fully planned on diplomacy with the Outcasts. From them I have the "You will die dog!" response.
Let me just get this straight please.. "So of course, knowing that a Corsair Adjuducator would raise Outcast eyebrows," and "I had fully planned on diplomacy with the Outcasts."
You did say this correct? I'm just making sure everyone has this as clear as it really is.
Quote:In the mind of the Junker politician, "Vladimir Tinkerbell", this is about Junker sovereignty...the ability for Junkers to be self-determining in forming their own government. To show they can make unilateral decisions and don't have to "do what they are told and shut up". It is very much like the US standing up to Britain over British ships "press ganging" US sailors into the British navy after the Revolutionary War.
I just need to get this correct as well.. Your the Americans being oppressed by the British. Not quite sure if I've ever seen an Outcast tell you what to do, but the point is moot. To protect your freedom, you hire a Corsair to defend you. Lets say that one more time. To protect your freedom, you have a foreign warship from a piratical faction protecting your station for you.
Are we clear here as well?
Oh, and a snipit;
Quote:and I get a lot of veiled threats--but no comment directly from any Outcast leadership.
Would you like me to get the message you recieved from the Council of Dons that Ross Nolles sent you? Oh, here it is.
I think you'll find your own 'I don't want to have to deal with you' response directly beneath.
Oh, and a third thing we need cleared up.
Quote:Junkers can appoint representatives to administer their own affairs
Quote:Junker freedom and independence.
Did I hear that right? Yes?
Quote:Many Junkers have asked me to field cap ships and start actively attacking those harassing us at Yanagi and I have told them to wait a diplomatic solution.
So we hire a Corsair, someone actively at war with a faction that makes up 40% of Sigma-13's population. No doubt about it, quite clear here.
Quote:As a Junker "leader" (of sorts) I am charged with maintaining traditional Junker allegiances--I can't afford to bend to far one way or the other and must try to represent all sides as best possible. So I wouldn't "in character" pick Corsairs over Outcasts (or vice-versa).
Can we sanction people for breaking their own rules? No? Damn.
//
Try diplomacy :)
(I did miss the diplomatic messages--sorry--been working twenty hour days for three weeks. I'll try to find them)
This isn't a "let me prove you wrong" debate. I have my own role play reasoning for what I am doing. It doesn't mater if you like or agree with it. These are the decisions my character is making for his own reasons.
Tinkerbell's idea of "Junker best interests" and yours--as an Outcast--will be very different and he is not the "typical Junker" to begin with.
What is in the Junker's best interest is to be in control of their own affairs. This is not something Junkers are used to as a group and is really a "new concept" for them. Outcasts have maintained relations with individual criminals and their cliques. The Congress is the first baby-step towards elevating Junkers from strict individualism and simple profiteering towards being more as a people and eventually a "nation".
Sometimes a conflict can cause unity where a lack of it does not. Politics is all about taking risks to get returns. You would be surprised at how many have quietly offered to take up arms on our behalf over this. That isn't our desire.
As to Outcast actions, the regular "sweeps" of Sigma demanding confiscation of all Nomad weaponry taken from the Wild...the undisciplined Dragons pirating and killing Junkers while Outcast pilots stood by and said if you fight them we will attack you--those were factors in deciding our course of action in Sigma.
We don't have large fleets and massive forces. We needed a firm ally. Outcasts can speak to me any time regarding specific action by our adjudicator. Where are these massive cardamine convoys he is looting and pirating in Sigma?
When Green Hawk is away from Yanagi, he is fully a "Corsair"--what he and you do to one another is not our concern. At Yanagi, he is "on duty" for the Junkers.
Do the Outcasts propose an alternative other than "Do what we say or die?"
I abhor the IRA's action but I'll draw a parallel: The IRA, a terrorist paramilitary. The Sinn Fein--a political arm that deals with governments.
Green hawk is essentially "Sinn Fein" when he is at Yanagi--if he steps beyond that while there, inform me od specificsand we will take action.
We have an interest in this process beyond Yanagi--its the first place we put a principle into action and we want to establish and develop it fully there. It's non House space and it can get a little messy--we'll clean up when we are done.
I have to admit, when this was brought to the Council, I was a little taken. Firstly that Green Hawk would want to work for the Junkers, and secondly that the Junkers would expose themselves politically, both IC and OOC.
Then Green Hawk appeared himself and stood behind Tinkerbell. I'm not going to tell Green Hawk what to do and what not to do, especially in character and especially because he's an Indy. (I've also had some interaction with him on other characters. He's a helpful guy.)
Something else occurred to me as well. The TBH and RM war might have left an impression on Yanagi after the Altenaria left and the Corsairs departed. I understand the general interaction between Junkers and Corsairs as being somewhat strained, but this event, which lasted for at least a couple of weeks, if not a month or more would have perhaps given the local Junkers a more favorable attitude?
Picking at straws and what not, but great Roleplay overall. :cool:
"The thirteen saloons that had lined the one street of Seney had not left a trace. The foundations of the Mansion House hotel stuck up above the ground. The stone was chipped and split by the fire. It was all that was left of the town of Seney. Even the surface had been burned off the ground.
Nick looked at the burned-over stretch of hillside, where he had expected to find the scattered houses of the town and then walked down the railroad track to the bridge over the river. The river was there."
I think that Dab, like myself, is not annoyed by the presence of Green Hawk, but more by the fact that our IC expression of concern over the Outcast's profit margins dropping as a result of green hawks appearance, was taken as a non diplomatic message.
there was far more behiond it than "send in the navy" and that wasn't noticed.
My last post was full of it. If you can't counter my points, just say so.
' Wrote:(I did miss the diplomatic messages--sorry--been working twenty hour days for three weeks. I'll try to find them)
Well thats funny.. I distinctly remember you having had posted immediately after we sent that. The post contained a quote of the entire transmission in fact.
' Wrote:This isn't a "let me prove you wrong" debate. I have my own role play reasoning for what I am doing. It doesn't mater if you like or agree with it. These are the decisions my character is making for his own reasons.
' Wrote:Tinkerbell's idea of "Junker best interests" and yours--as an Outcast--will be very different and he is not the "typical Junker" to begin with.
But he is a Junker correct? Representing the Junker faction at the moment. Therefor, should he not be acting like a Junker, or making decisions that are in the Junkers best interests?
' Wrote:What is in the Junker's best interest is to be in control of their own affairs.
No argument here. What the argument is, is having a Corsair in control of you, rather than you yourselves. Your not in control of anything, your under the control of Corsairs and with that, making yourselves enemies of the Blood Dragon, GC, and Outcasts.
' Wrote:Sometimes a conflict can cause unity where a lack of it does not. Politics is all about taking risks to get returns. You would be surprised at how many have quietly offered to take up arms on our behalf over this. That isn't our desire.
And now you require them to take up arms on your behalf, as you are intentionally causing that conflict between the Junkers and Outcasts. Thank you for confirming.
' Wrote:As to Outcast actions, the regular "sweeps" of Sigma demanding confiscation of all Nomad weaponry taken from the Wild...the undisciplined Dragons pirating and killing Junkers while Outcast pilots stood by and said if you fight them we will attack you--those were factors in deciding our course of action in Sigma.
Taking the nomad gear back is perfectly legit. And Dragons taking out Junkers.. We considering that 90% of the Junker tags I see are on Trader-IDd Adv. Trains taking Diamonds to Kusari. Also, as rules state, ID before tag. So those are traders, not Junkers. If you have any evidence that they are killing Junker ID'd and tagged transports doing something other than violating their territory for powertrading profit, please do share.
' Wrote:We don't have large fleets and massive forces. We needed a firm ally. Outcasts can speak to me any time regarding specific action by our adjudicator. Where are these massive cardamine convoys he is looting and pirating in Sigma?
*Clap. Clap.* "You have your firm allies now, and your firm enemies as well. Not only are there specific actions of your adjudicator, specifically him changing to his Order Osiris to BS-whore individual BD, GC, and OC fighters/bombers in the system. Then there is also the problem of him being a Corsair. Whether he was doing his pvp whoring or not, that would still be a problem. One you created and one you must not deal with. In case you need to know, or if you even care, El Nino is his Osiris, unless its had its name changed.
' Wrote:When Green Hawk is away from Yanagi, he is fully a "Corsair"--what he and you do to one another is not our concern. At Yanagi, he is "on duty" for the Junkers.
No, when he is at Yanagi, he simply sits behind a small neutrality shield. We've dealt with him abusing that so he can later attack us at will in an Osiris long enough, don't expect us to keep letting him sit there and prohibiting us from docking Yanagi for resupply and repair for much longer, whether Junkers like it or not.
' Wrote:Do the Outcasts propose an alternative other than "Do what we say or die?"
Do you wish to read the message we've sent? There really is no alternative, nor further politics to be discussed until the Corsair in charge of Yanagi has been dealt with and replaced with a true Junker.
' Wrote:We have an interest in this process beyond Yanagi--its the first place we put a principle into action and we want to establish and develop it fully there. It's non House space and it can get a little messy--we'll clean up when we are done.
Your causing it to be messy. Be assured, the Outcasts are not causing the problems here. You and your adjudicator are. Be prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions.
Now would you please be kind enough to respond to the rest of the issues I addressed in my first post? Specifically, why you picked a Corsair? I believe we all know the answer, but your free to give your side of the story.
' Wrote:I think that Dab, like myself, is not annoyed by the presence of Green Hawk, but more by the fact that our IC expression of concern over the Outcast's profit margins dropping as a result of green hawks appearance, was taken as a non diplomatic message.
there was far more behiond it than "send in the navy" and that wasn't noticed.
//Sorry--I have had a really crushing "on call" workload for three weeks and am surviving on 2-4 hours sleep a night. So I have missed some play events when they happened and I am sure some posts as well. My apologies there.
There is a principle important to the Congress here and Yanagi--for reasons beyond Corsairs and Outcasts is where we have the chance to implement it.
That said, there is an opportunity here for the Outcasts as well--if they will choose to see it that way.
We have not departed from "Junkerism"--we are still desirous of having allies on both sides. So if we offered the Corsair member a post the Outcasts should ask, "What would you offer us?"
Just a hint--darn it!
//I have to go back to work now--sigh--but I'll try to get a detailed official communique out to you guys when I am able later.
The Outcasts, as always, offer huge profits from the drug we produce. Very simple stuff that. You want your profit to suffer?
For the continued support of the Outcasts, drop the Corsair. Stay -geniuenly- neutral in the war. That does -not- include employing our enemies.
We don't expect you to give us positions of power within your organisational structure, what we do expect is for you to treat our enemies in the same way, otherwise you may be showing some degree of favouritism, don'cha think?
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