Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences

[Jack_Henderson]

This is a rather technical rule question and I hope I can explain it in a way that makes sense. Took me a while to figure out the problem, and translucentrabbit helped a lot with it. This is also at the core of my scepticism and (as of now) rejection of the O3/O7 ZoI extension for BAF and RM.

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It's easiest to explain with an example:

> Blood Diamonds is illegal in Rheinland space.
> Blood Diamonds are legal in Bretonian space (e.g. O3).

The example also works with every law violation, of course. Normally everything is clear, but when Navies are allowed into the territory of their neighbouring navy via ZoI extension, things are not clear any more.

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Invented situation:

1. A Rheinland Military ship in O3 scans an IMG ship that carries Blood Diamonds.
   
2. In O3 and Bretonia this is legal.
   
3. For the RM (and his legal House codex) it is illegal (see Rheinland contraband laws).
   
4. The ZoI rules allow the RM to enforce roleplay consequences if he sees the law violation himself when he has ZoI there (see the rules quoted below). With the new test run, he has ZoI in Omega 3, which would likely classify as "Outer Regional Space".
   
5. RM reports the law infraction (against Rheinland law) to Rheinland Government
   
6. RheinGov votes on a FR5
   
7. A FR5 is filed with the roleplay evidence of the encounter attached
   

To sum the example up: Rheinland law can be used to force roleplay consequences (e.g. a FR5) on an IMG even though the "crime" has taken place where the law that is used (Rheinland law) is not even valid.

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A more exaggerated example might make it even clearer when the Navies operate further away from home laws:

1. Liberty Navy has ZOI in Bretonia to help against Gallia.
   
2. A LN ship sees a Junker smugger carrying Liberty contraband in Leeds.
   
3. As the LN has ZoI in Leeds, and as he saw the law violation himself, he can...
   
4. Report the law violation to Liberty
   
5. And Liberty could fine/punish/FR5 the smuggler for something he did in Leeds.
   

Summed up: A Junker is screwed because he was seen in Leeds by a LN who had ZoI by the extension that was granted, even though I find it highly doubtful if Liberty law was used for something in Leeds.

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The relevant rules:

Outer Regional Space
- House Military, Police, and Intelligence factions may enforce roleplay consequences upon any players and factions found breaking House Laws within Outer Regional Space, only if they are personally there to witness to the legal infraction while uncloaked and equipped with a House Military, Police, or Intelligence faction ID.

All Systems
- House Miltary, Police and Intelligence factions may enforce roleplay consequences only for actions occurring within their ZOI.

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Questions:

1. Am I making a mistake here or are my assumptions correct?
   
2. Are "foreign navies" restricted to only assisting the "home navy" who do the law-roleplay? (example: RM in O3 can just assist BAF in fights and in enforcing the laws that the BAF bring forward in roleplay. The RM can't do that in O3 on its own, but could e.g. shoot Sairs and Hessians, but not "police" in the strict sense)
   
3. Are "foreign navies" restricted to enforcing the laws of the "host nation" (example: RM in O3 would be able to enforce Bretonian law, but not Rheinland law)?
   
4. Are "foreign navies" able to enforce law of "host nation" PLUS force roleplay consequences by reporting law violations back to their house? (like in my examples above)
   

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In my personal opinion, it should be: "Foreign guest navy can only assist home navy and is not allowed to enforce laws (neither home laws, nor host nation laws) on their own"

And I also think that this should be somehow included into the rules because even though it might sound harmless, it is not.

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[Thunderer]

http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...pid1421397

Please have a glance at the rules for Sovereign House Space, House Controlled Space and Outer Regional Space. Omega-3 falls into neither for Rheinland, same as Omega-7 for Bretonia. Both fall into "All Systems" for the Houses respectfully.

The RM can't enforce any Rheinland laws in Bretonia, and vice-versa. The RM also can't enforce Bretonian laws, unless a treaty changes that. They can help against an invader that is a common enemy. These factions are military, not polices.

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Bretonian Treaty Database Bretonian Armed Forces Recruitment Center
Bretonian Charter of Interstellar Law Bretonian Secrets Act

[Laura C.]

http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...pid1421397

Please have a glance at the rules for Sovereign House Space, House Controlled Space and Outer Regional Space. Omega-3 falls into neither for Rheinland, same as Omega-7 for Bretonia.

This is not valid for this problem, because the law violation is going to be documented by law enforcer which directly witnessed it. Only rule concerning this says

- House Miltary, Police and Intelligence factions may enforce roleplay consequences only for actions occurring within their ZOI.

But since now O-3 will be part of RM ZOI and O-7 part of BAF ZOI, technically they can enforce consequencies for law violations which happened in other house. Also, technically if we just blindly add the systems to the ZOIs, it allows people to enforce Rheinland laws in O-3 and BAF in O-7. It is problem which, quite surprisingly, no one solved even with LN ID, which has some Bretonian systems in their ZOI and thus technically can enforce Liberty laws there.

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Jack_Henderson]

ΤΩΣO
House Controlled Space: Omega-3, [...]

In my interpretation this means that O3 is a "yellow" system, House Controlled Space for the faction that has it in the ZOI, which is BAF, BPA, BIS.

O7 for BAF would likely be red then? But how to put that into the classification? No idea. It's already really hard to understand.

I honestly do not understand it fully myself, that's why clarification is needed.

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[Jack_Henderson]

Please have a glance at the rules [...]

I am rather sure I am right in my interpretation and your reading of the rule is wrong.

The RM can't enforce any Rheinland laws in Bretonia, and vice-versa. The RM also can't enforce Bretonian laws, unless a treaty changes that. They can help against an invader that is a common enemy. These factions are military, not polices.

By the letter of the rules, BAF can enforce Bretonian Law in O7, if my way of reading is correct.
And also RM could enforce Rheinland law in O3, again if I got it right.

An ingame treaty does not change a thing there, as we are talking rules here. In an "Fr5 process" as I explained it in my example, BAF would not even get a notice about it. This is an oorp process, a rather complex rule question that cannot be handled with "but they are not meant to police". If their ID and ZoI allows it, they can do it. And as I see it, they can.

Also, technically if we just blindly add the systems to the ZOIs, it allows people to enforce Rheinland laws in O-3 and BAF in O-7. It is problem which, quite surprisingly, no one solved even with LN ID, which has some Bretonian systems in their ZOI and thus technically can enforce Liberty laws there.

That's also my understanding of the implications.

[Thunderer]

I'm confused now too. Shouldn't have delved into this at half past 1 AM. I'll take another look after sleep.

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Bretonian Treaty Database Bretonian Armed Forces Recruitment Center
Bretonian Charter of Interstellar Law Bretonian Secrets Act

[Laura C.]

The RM can't enforce any Rheinland laws in Bretonia, and vice-versa. The RM also can't enforce Bretonian laws, unless a treaty changes that. They can help against an invader that is a common enemy. These factions are military, not polices.

I know you go with common sense, but technically it will allow that. If some RM indie will go enforce Rheinland laws in O-3, what will stop him? His ID will be saying:

- Can demand contraband and levy fines within their Zone of Influence, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
- Can attack ships which are in violation of Rheinland laws or belong to a house or organisation considered hostile by Rheinland within their Zone of Influence.
(...)
Zone of Influence: Rheinland, systems directly bordering Rheinland, Omega-3

Do you see the problem? RP treaty is not the same as ID rules and ID rules in this form will allow that.

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[sindroms]

Just to note, the rules for FR5 are quite possibly going to be changed soon, especially regarding smuggling.

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[nOmnomnOm]

... FR5 ... especially regarding smuggling.

Well this should be interesting ^^

[Unlucky_Soul]

Could this be an [A]dmin conspiracy to escalate a war between Bretonia & Rhienland ?

On a serious note i think Jack has raised a valid point

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