Eyvind's faction proposal, namely his use of Open Document Format got me thinking. This is by no means Eyvind's fault, nor that of the the admins' or anyone else's. People use the tools they best know, and release information by the best way they can. I wish to speak of consistency and co-operation.
In order to properly play Discovery I now have open:
I also keep an additional forum tab open to reference different topics when I'm replying. That's 7 tabs and 4 different software formats just to play discovery in order to not get sanctioned. I'm pretty glad Eyvind didn't just post his ODF files, no matter how better they were in formatting than BBcode.
Now, not pointing fingers or accusing anyone here, just a humble request:
Could we please centralize and punctualize all this information?
Innovation is good. Making innovation useful, however, requires work. Most of our sub-forums have 10 or so topics pinned. All need to be read. Without lying I needed to spend two days reading Disco rules to be able to play correctly. I needed to scavenge information not pinned, but not refenced anywhere. I needed to find and install, and re-install tools (starting with flmm 1.4 beta), scourge for Liberty Penal Code lost in the depths of the forum, and open five (5) different document formats.
I'll repeat, it took me two (2) days to read and understand all rules and requirements. I read a good (and better written) book in four (4).
Now, this is not a "you all suck" message. This is an invitation for you, players, and you, the admins, to point out and react in order to punctualize and concentrate all our innovations in a package, which will be more useful.
I have an example: the 7th pinned topic (7th!) under server announcements regards character accounts. Just today, I tried to help a person, who clearly has not read the topic, or if he has, it has since been edited.
This single topic has two posts. One that says admin's won't freeze characters. Another one provides a link to someone, who is willing to do it. A single 15 second edit combining these two posts would make the pin two hundred percent (200%) more efficient, and a lot more sensible. Removing needless courtesies, and simply submitting "sorry, but these are server requirements" at the end of the post would mean it'd be
a) a third shorter
b) twice more readable
c) removing the urge to create topics I refered to
bringing the efficiency of a single 45sec edit up to 250% from before. A stock broker would give his little finger and sell his children for this kind of win!
I don't mean to bicker or to accuse anyone, I just feel different people are using their best found means to create their ideas. However, now we are forced to use all our ideas and resources simply to gather those crumbs up and use our free time to understand it all. Time, which we could instead use for further innovation if people just acted together with some consistency.
I bring my own crumb to the pile by noticing, there are about a gazillion topics on (re)installing Freelancer, installing the mod and making it widescreen. As a former IT professional I'm more than capable of creating a pinnable, standardized and compact topic of documentation (with screencaps) to accomplish all these. I invite everyone with skill to make their own effort in bettering this chaos. A combined legal topic on all the penal codes of the major houses, anyone? It's good to combine 4-6 different posts into one, trust me.
Perhaps as an added benefit (and to reward the forum work ants) we could also ask for donations - for our characters. Two mil to arris if his post made you able to play Disco at all? Would be pretty sensible methinks :)
Anyway, in a nutshell: There are too many methods, resources and ideas, and I feel none of them are acting together. Making ideas useful means some lenience and co-operation, but I feel the outcome would be much better than the scrap yard we need to plough through right now. As I said, I can show an example by cleaning the (re)install problem. I could begin in the morning and be done by the evening. It is really that simple, it's just that no one cares to do it. And still, it would benefit so many people.
I have tried to make a similar post before, though on a smaller scale. Most people just don't seem to care. I think that's sad, because how can such a "community" call itself a community.
Edit: topic subject clarified (this example work took me a minute. Now it makes more sense. How cool is that!)
The most important point about this, I feel, are the admin notices. There are several pinned admin notices in most forums, each also often has several individual posts that are often equally important.
This is a nice system in that it is easy for admins to put up notices in the most appropriate section of the forum
There are, however, two major problems with this system that I can see:
1. With each new post, oversight worsens. The notices are decentralized and, I imagine, only reviewed occasionally perhaps when there is a related problem. Eventually, there will be errors in these notices and notices that contradict others.
The first problem, then, is the system is difficult to maintain.
2. Players need to read most of the notices in addition to the server rules to make sure they don't do anything they shouldn't. Also, not all players check the forums as often as they must in order to stay up-to-date on important issues. I, for example, was completely unaware that no one should enter Gallia a few days ago until someone mentioned it in Skype yesterday.
The second problem, then, is that the information is not available enough.
Information that all players are more or less requires to know should be centralized in some way. Players should also be informed in some way when the information is updated.
This single issue is relatively easy to resolve, whether or not the rest of the ones arris brought up are. It is in any case the most crucial, I think.
The real issue I see with your proposal Arris is who is 'we', who is goning to do all the work to compile this information and compress it into something more usable without getting paid to do it. Personally I work on the wiki when I can, for instane I updated all the commodities from 4.85 and I'm sure I'll find something else to do soon. As it is I spend more time on the forums and working on the wiki and working on trade routes and doing work for the factions that I'm a member of than I spend in game, probably at least twice as much. If you think the information should be more compiled then I recommend you help with the wiki if you are not doing that already. I believe it to be the best format available to us for a great deal of the information that this community utilizes. If you want I can even add you to the wiki author skype chat (if you have skype), we always love to hear new ideas.
In terms of the number of windows you have to have open a lot of the stuff you have listed seems like it only need to be open at certain times, the commodity stuff when you are planning routes, the ID and equipment stuff when you are building characters and equipping them, the forums for miscellaneous info (this I do have open all the time but mostly because it is a good way to kill time while trading), FL roadmap only on new accounts, although you can get the same data from companion for the most part and the text document whenever working on chartacters or ingame. The wiki I pretty much only use when investigating for the purpose of RP or when the ship data was up to date to figure out ship choice (though we are working on bringing that section up to date). So I see a maximum of 5 windows you have to have open at once and 3 programs. Considering how many sheets of paper and books a table top RP'er has to have in front of them when they play I dont think this is unreasonable.
But seriously, you should help with the wiki if you have a thing for content management.
' Wrote:The real issue I see with your proposal Arris is who is 'we', who is goning to do all the work to compile this information and compress it into something more usable without getting paid to do it.
Well, we could create a "bug report list" but only for the forums instead of the game, for example. If someone has an idea they can report and suggest a new formatting for a pin/compined pins, and the mods only need to copy and paste if it seems good. And like I said, I can combine the various bits and pieces of installation tutorials for a nice little "installing and setting up FL with FRAPS, FLMM and Disco guide".
"We" in this case means all of us. Every single person who ever had a problem, but missed the relevant pin due to the chaotic nature all the information is spread in. Every single person, who has an idea how to better convey multiple messages in a tighter, more understandable package. Every single person, who found something important on the forums, but shouldn't have had to look for it for the past 2 hours.
We can approach it pretty much the same way as the wiki, or a bug repository. Not being able to edit messages doesn't mean you can't be bold.
Quote:If you think the information should be more compiled then I recommend you help with the wiki if you are not doing that already. I believe it to be the best format available to us for a great deal of the information that this community utilizes. If you want I can even add you to the wiki author skype chat (if you have skype), we always love to hear new ideas.
I have a wiki account, but I'm a bit cautious at the moment, seeing there are disagreements on what to put and what not to put there. I have spent double my play time elsewhere too: the forums :) I agree the wiki should be the central collection for information concerning Discovery. However, the wiki pretty much gets all it's information on rules and specifics from forum announcements, google docs and spreads, etc. The wiki stays obsolete for months, and editing it fully - that is the salary job you mentioned. Not these little edits here and there on the forums I suggested. Edits, that clarify and compress that information the wiki is dependant on.
This is why we need to approach it from two directions, cleaning up the source of information is just as valid. Bold people can then just copy and paste everything they can to the wiki, and let others format it further if they don't know how themselves, like Eyvind has suggested on another topic.
I'd love to see Xoria's equipment lists reside in the wiki instead of Google spreads, perhaps he could be persuaded to try his hand at that. Naturally articles this important would need to be protected from casual editors.
Quote:In terms of the number of windows you have to have open a lot of the stuff you have listed seems like it only need to be open at certain times, the commodity stuff when you are planning routes, the ID and equipment stuff when you are building characters and equipping them, the forums for miscellaneous info (this I do have open all the time but mostly because it is a good way to kill time while trading), FL roadmap only on new accounts, although you can get the same data from companion for the most part and the text document whenever working on chartacters or ingame.
Well, that's the thing. I don't need a lot of these all the time, but I need something of these constantly. It pretty much needs to be open lest I forget it exists or where it was (ObBesserwissers: yes, I do know how to use bookmarks thank you :)
A simple topic combining all Disco essentials would be nice, perhaps. There are some topics that have some of it, but not all of it.
You suggested that this amount of work needs someone to be paid for it. I'm completely against your implication. I am not talking about completely rewriting everything on the forums, and doing minor edits on a chosen few topics does not constitute labor. Rather, a few examples:
A post says character accounts are not frozen anymore, nor are they fetched from the database if flushed. In the second post there is a link to a privately kept freezing service. Since the first post strongly says no, people bypass the post and complain on the forums about a service they think they don't have but actually do.
Why don't we fix this?
People send sales announcements on SSE. The sale is finalized, but the announcer never bothers to report the it is so. He doesn't edit the topic to read "CLOSED" either. Multiple people check the topic for nigh, some even post whether or not it's open to no avail. The sub-forum rules do not exclamate closed deals should be clearly marked so, in order to make the sub-forum easier to use.
Why don't we fix this?*
There are a dozen install and problem guides, all with relevant information. As they're not combined and clarified, people miss the information concerning them, and send in help requests daily.
Why don't we fix this?
Quote:But seriously, you should help with the wiki if you have a thing for content management.
I stress people come to the forums first. When I first joined the forums, I had to search for Igiss' posts in order to find a link to the wiki, since that was the only place I spot it from all this mess. I weren't even aware a wiki exists, and have already forgotten which of these dozens of pins includes a link to it. I think it was somewhere in the tutorials department. Now, you invite everyone to edit the wiki, while people aren't even clearly and explicitly invited to use it - on the forums.
So why don't we fix this?
I agree the wiki is a great content management system for information. But the wiki isn't the source for that information. The source is here on the forums, on Google Docs, Google Spreads, PDFs, ODFs, JPEGs and whatnot. Rather, wiki as of now contains miserably obsolete and even erratic information, and will continue to do so. Why? Because editing the wiki is dependant on the source.
This is the place to find the most up-to-date, relevant information. Fixing these errors help people copy and paste that source to the wiki, enabling also the wiki to repair itself faster. People aren't bold because the information isn't easily accessed, nor organized.
I simply:
a) invite people to point out cases where it can easily be made so, if they ever run into trouble or get an idea.
b) invite admins to listen and consider these suggestions, and my opinion that there are many simple, easy-to-do tasks that would make the forums more accessible. For everyone.
Remember, people do not come to the forums through the wiki. They go to the wiki through the forums.
*Some people do follow my example and you know, it's so nice not clicking on a link when you know beforehand, it wouldn't be of any use
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