Rules Clarification 2.0 PVP baiting

[EisenSeele]

This notice is a general warning that explains the server staff’s current position on “PvP baiting”.

2.0 - Every ship must have one ID equipped, and play in a way that represents the role of that ID. Your ID explains what you can do and where. Some IDs have a 'Zone of Influence' (ZOI) where extra actions are permitted. All IDs have a ZOI in systems containing an NPC station of the same affiliation.

IDs that specify a Zone of Influence let you know what you can do and where. The rules also allow you to defend your allies (by NPC diplomacy or group membership), unless you are in a capital ship outside your Zone of Influence.

This warning has been primarily prompted by two recent situations:

Convoys of DTR capital ships regularly roaming outside their ZoI, i.e. Liberty, to “defend “ their smugglers.
LSF capital ships appearing at the Reincarnation siege yesterday, to “defend” the Core there.

PvP baiting is when a player is in a location where they do not have any right to initiate an attack, but either antagonises their opponents into attacking them, or places themselves in a situation / location where it is inevitable that they will be attacked.

This isn’t a new idea, and is something that was severely punished in the past as it is effectively a method of circumventing ID restrictions. While we're not saying that was the intent in the two situations above, they are illustrative of the concept.

This thread serves as a reminder not to do this, as we will be considering future occurrences as breaches of rule 2.0.

Some examples:

A BAF fighter flies to Ile-de-France and repeatedly insults Gallic Navy players until they attack him. This is PvP baiting because he is goading a fight while trying to hide behind “self-defence” rules.
A group of Unioners and Rogue Scyllas raid New Berlin. Even if they do not shoot first, the Rogues are PvP baiting because they are out of ZoI, are flying a ship class that is not allowed to defend allies outside ZoI, and have placed themselves in a situation where combat is inevitable.
A fleet of Corsair battleships sit outside Manhattan to "observe". Despite sending messages that are "polite" / non-antagonizing, this is PvP baiting because they are aware that their presence in such a sensitive location will inevitably provoke an attack.

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FEEDBACK

[Perfect Gentleman]

Didn't LSF announce their cooperation with the Core in advance? And this was accompanied by RP on the forums, and not a simple "hey, let's fly to Delta, let's have fun".

I mean, all the cases described after what you said about LSF are a demonstration of this quote. While LSF did not and do not have any relation to this quote. This is just my interest and is not a reason for any criticism. Plus, it's being done by a faction whose whole concept is literally to get into things they shouldn't:

In response, LSF Command authorized the formation of a specialized squadron composed of veteran operatives with proven combat records and technical expertise. The unit was officially designated as the Liberty Security Forces Special Squadron (LSS) and given the callsign "Safari", derisively reflecting its mission of hunting down high-value targets even in far territories.

I mean, the guys literally play according to their RP, haven't received a single question from the Administration before, and now, well... Uh... As if their presence in Omicron Delta has affected anything at all. My words about a faction imply that not every second person did this: a group of people came up with an idea for their RP and decided to implement it.

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Discovery is a server of dreams.
And I'm a big dreamer.

[EisenSeele]

Didn't LSF announce their cooperation with the Core in advance? And this was accompanied by RP on the forums, and not a simple "hey, let's fly to Delta, let's have fun".

I mean, all the cases described after what you said about LSF are a demonstration of this quote. While LSF did not and do not have any relation to this quote. This is just my interest and is not a reason for any criticism. Plus, it's being done by a faction whose whole concept is literally to get into things they shouldn't:

In response, LSF Command authorized the formation of a specialized squadron composed of veteran operatives with proven combat records and technical expertise. The unit was officially designated as the Liberty Security Forces Special Squadron (LSS) and given the callsign "Safari", derisively reflecting its mission of hunting down high-value targets even in far territories.

I mean, the guys literally play according to their RP, haven't received a single question from the Administration before, and now, well... Uh... As if their presence in Omicron Delta has affected anything at all. My words about a faction imply that not every second person did this: a group of people came up with an idea for their RP and decided to implement it.

LSF ID has the following line:
Outside Zone of Influence:
- Must only attack in self-defence while using Cruisers or Battlecruisers

Corsairs are listed as hostile in the Laws of LIberty, so they're fair game - but Omicron Delta is outside of LSF ZOI, so you'd only be allowed to hunt them in ships that aren't Cruiser or Battlecruiser class. Player roleplay without some extenuating permissions from staff cannot violate server and ID rules.

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FEEDBACK

[jammi]

Didn't LSF announce their cooperation with the Core in advance? And this was accompanied by RP on the forums, and not a simple "hey, let's fly to Delta, let's have fun".

We all still need to be mindful of our ID restrictions. Rule 2.3 is very clear - cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships don't have the ability to defend allies outside ZoI.

Intelligence IDs are even more explicit, and have a line that specifically states these ships can only act in self-defence while outside ZoI, regardless of any other allowances.

If they want to go on deep space hunting expeditions outside their ZoI, it needs to be in smaller ship, and in accordance with their ID and the server rules.

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News article library, feedback and content requests.

[Perfect Gentleman]

Okay, okay, I take it back. I remembered what I wrote 10 minutes later.

Well, let's have fun on smaller ships. ^^

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Discovery is a server of dreams.
And I'm a big dreamer.

[NBK]

The clarification is very belated, but absolutely fair. I should add that indeed the decision to fly in the Battlecruisers was primarily due to this behaviour by DTR in Liberty territory, which was a big green light to RP it like we did. At least I think now everyone will be more faithful to the rules and not try to look for blurred lines.

Although I will add that there was a second option where the appearance of LSF capitals is the consequences of short-sighted actions of the official (!) faction. In my opinion, that could in a good manner teach official factions to watch their actions, cause they might get actual IRP/PVP problems.

I am glad that this time the administration solves issues with a cool head and without clumsy decisions.

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LIBERTY THROUGH THE POWER

INFORMATION, RECRUITMENT, INTERNAL COMMUNICATION,
FEEDBACK.

[Eternal.Journey]

This notice is a general warning that explains the server staff’s current position on “PvP baiting”.

2.0 - Every ship must have one ID equipped, and play in a way that represents the role of that ID. Your ID explains what you can do and where. Some IDs have a 'Zone of Influence' (ZOI) where extra actions are permitted. All IDs have a ZOI in systems containing an NPC station of the same affiliation.

IDs that specify a Zone of Influence let you know what you can do and where. The rules also allow you to defend your allies (by NPC diplomacy or group membership), unless you are in a capital ship outside your Zone of Influence.

This warning has been primarily prompted by two recent situations:

Convoys of DTR capital ships regularly roaming outside their ZoI, i.e. Liberty, to “defend “ their smugglers.
LSF capital ships appearing at the Reincarnation siege yesterday, to “defend” the Core there.

PvP baiting is when a player is in a location where they do not have any right to initiate an attack, but either antagonises their opponents into attacking them, or places themselves in a situation / location where it is inevitable that they will be attacked.

This isn’t a new idea, and is something that was severely punished in the past as it is effectively a method of circumventing ID restrictions. While we're not saying that was the intent in the two situations above, they are illustrative of the concept.

This thread serves as a reminder not to do this, as we will be considering future occurrences as breaches of rule 2.0.

Some examples:

A BAF fighter flies to Ile-de-France and repeatedly insults Gallic Navy players until they attack him. This is PvP baiting because he is goading a fight while trying to hide behind “self-defence” rules.
A group of Unioners and Rogue Scyllas raid New Berlin. Even if they do not shoot first, the Rogues are PvP baiting because they are out of ZoI, are flying a ship class that is not allowed to defend allies outside ZoI, and have placed themselves in a situation where combat is inevitable.
A fleet of Corsair battleships sit outside Manhattan to "observe". Despite sending messages that are "polite" / non-antagonizing, this is PvP baiting because they are aware that their presence in such a sensitive location will inevitably provoke an attack.

I do have to say, this is a far better way to handle these cases. Kudos for that.

Also like to highlight that these examples are very very good in terms of highlighting the "PvP Baiting" side of it, because I don't believe its truly been properly explained in the past. Everyone has their opinions on what is and isn't, and that of course is where previous confusions rest.

One edge case is quite the conundrum though. Insert Artifact smuggler case from... some months ago now. Outcasts get to /1 /2 Stabiline and Artifact smugglers absolutely anywhere on anything. Say you found someone smuggling artifacts to Gallia (for whatever reason, edge case hypothetical) and you have killed said smuggler before as an Outcast. You see that smuggler in Omicron Theta, but they're too far to do anything. You know their route, you cut them off in Gallia. Out of ZoI for Outcast, but if it has Artifacts, you as the Outcast can shoot them. It turns out they are just hauling Rum this time and they report you for being out of ZoI. How would this be treated?

One more clarification is needed though. The proposed changes to what's a "Transport" or "Liner" or "Combat Ship". Say you bring a Bustard, which in itself is a very combat-capable ship: Does this rulechange make it also not usable outside of ZoI for more than "defensive capacity"? I have seen this being brought up many a time and still no actual concrete decision on whether or not this is breaking ID lines, or whether that its "Liner" classification makes it the sole exemption that can be used as though it is a snub in terms of "Being able to do more than defend itself outside of ZoI".

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[R.P.Curator]

IF the OC engaged the smuggler in PVP or Piracy, the report is valid. Its up to the admin team how they treat it, based on the outcome of the encounter and the players involved, therefore subjective.
Out of ZOI, OC can only Attack any ships carrying Artifacts, Stabiline or Nox (as per ID lines).
Rest of interactions, excluding RP, are within ZOI or Omi Alpha only, as per ID lines.

[Lemon]

It's not going to be anal I hope... e.g. [LN] snubs in delta has been going on for years, they can shoot nomads for example - this stuff should be okay surely...

Or newbs running missions outside of Zoi and exploring on cruisers with no intention of attacking people (as happens, a LOT hah)

Or folks going out of Zoi for RP, scouting etc, and running when spotted or met with hostile intent on snubs


And these classifications are good, but I hope you are also mindful that news like this are also off-putting to casuals and beginners, it all seems so complicated hah

[Petitioner]

And these classifications are good, but I hope you are also mindful that news like this are also off-putting to casuals and beginners, it all seems so complicated hah

Actually I think it's rather the opposite. Let's put ourselves into the mind of Agent_John_Defender, who just bought his brand new Liberty "Archer"-class Siege Cruiser because he thinks sticks are cool, and hasn't yet gotten around to renaming himself to Agent_John_Siegecruiser.

Agent Johnny doesn't know yet fully know just how things are done here, but he's not a dumb guy, and he can read fine. He takes a look at his ID and thinks "oh, so I can go to Omicron Delta but I can only defend myself and that's it. I guess it's pretty clear I'm not supposed to be there in this ship. And there are a lot of people who would want to shoot me there, and I'm very much not supposed to shoot them there, so hm, maybe I just won't go there after all".

I think that a good-faith reading of the ID lines already implies that PVP baiting is bad and you should not do it, and that PVP baiting is mostly the purview of players who are not approaching these interactions in good faith (ie, they know better but they're doing something stupid anyway).

And, of course, if a situation is clearly the result of a new player misunderstanding things and not acting out of malice, the team is not going to slap them silly for it. That's what we have warnings for and why we try to approach these players for a friendly one-on-one chat.

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