Potential suggestions to improve Phantom and Character interactions

[chovynz]

This is sparked from the other recent Phantom flame thread. Which...in my opinion failed miserably in it's intent.
I would like to open this as I think this may be a player education issue which keeps arising.
Please no flames. I reserve the right to ask posts to be removed if I think they are going off topic.
I have no problem with disagreements, but if things become personal, I will ask those posts to be deleted or removed.

If you don't want to post, then send me a PM and I'll post your stance/suggestion myself, up for discussion.

Let's keep this positive hey! This is a big background thingybob. Skip to the suggestions section if you don't care about the "Whys"

---------------WHY----------------------------------

I've seen many threads flaming the Phantoms. And Keepers. And SCRA (not so much). And some others. I've accepted the fact that there will always be flame threads, and indeed you can actually learn from them.

However my focus in this thread is not to condemn, nor inflame, nor join in, nor hammer OP's or those who disagree with my stance, or others who criticize these factions, as that is a necessary part of asking questions. My intent of this thread, is to question, to figure out some stuff, to identify things that we can improve on, and make the RP more approachable, cohesive and understandable. Think of it as an advanced feedback thread on these types of factions.

Now.. Keepers are difficult to explain the RP they want, since they are aliens, and use telepathy and images, but also approach things with a different viewpoint. Phantoms, are humans that have been "enlightened." Since they are humans it's easier to communicate with other humans. The things these two have in common is essentially they are terrorists. They have a right to kill you. The do not need any reason, just there there is some roleplay beforehand.

Pilot carrying this ID is a Phantom, who:

• 
  
• Can attack any lawful and unlawful ships at will
  
• Cannot ally with any lawfuls
  
• Cannot demand credits or cargo from traders
  
• Cannot trade or escort traders
  

Pilot carrying this ID is a Nomad, who:

• 
  
• Can attack any ship or station at will
  
• Cannot ally with non-Nomads except for Outcasts
  
• Cannot demand credits or cargo
  
• Cannot land anywhere except Nomad or Wild bases
  

Understanding what appropriate roleplay is, is the part that is tripping people up I believe.
Every encounter by a Phantom (or Keeper) could be an enjoyable one, by all participants.

The first step in being able to enjoy the phantoms interactions is to read about and understand them. While yes, always keep in your mind that they CAN kill you, remember that not every encounter HAS to end up with one of you dead.

I believe one of the contributing factors is people still approach Discovery, as they do the Singleplayer. Lets look at it like this. "Freelancer" Vanilla, created the story, the platform that we work from. The basic guidelines that we use. "Freelancer" Discovery uses the platform that "Freelancer" Vanilla created.

There are a number of important distinctions.

Vanilla is Singleplayer. Discovery is Multiplayer.
Vanilla had one actor. Discovery has over 10,000 actors.
Vanilla, You were a Hero, the main guy who saved the universe. Discovery, You are Joe Blogs. One among many.
Vanilla was the starting point. It had a beginning and an end. Discovery is a separate story - in progress.
Vanilla set the scene. Discovery changes the stage.
Vanilla chapter is closed, finished, with some things left unanswered. Discovery creates whole new stories while trying to answer some of the questions left open.
"Freelancer" Vanilla created the engine of space FPS. "Freelancer" Discovery uses that same engine, but there the similarity stops (or is hindered by the Singleplayer game mechanics).

What is my point there? "Freelancer" Discovery, is a completely different game to "Freelancer" Vanilla.

Understanding that your characters are not more important than other characters can go a long way to helping create the appropriate attitude to enable appropriate RP, when encountering a Phantom/Terrorist/Nomad player. Understanding that your characters are not Heros, that your character can be killed by turning on a lightswitch that is faulty can help. Understanding that your character is just like you, can be hurt and is a fragile as you are.

Human life is so fragile. It can be snuffed out very easily. All it takes is one bullet in the right place. One blade. One hand. One choke. One stab. One train. One car. One pill.

All it takes is one thing in the right place, to kill another human. We are indeed fragile beings.

That is from a "Freelancer" Player's perspective. A human being who plays the game.

---------------WHAT----------------------------------

Communication first off. Communication is essential to people understanding each other. To my mind, there seems to be a communication breakdown, when flames threads are created. Communication happens from both/all parties of an encounter, so when one goes away upset, there is either an accidental communication breakdown (called misunderstanding) or deliberate breakdown (usually called provocation.)

These can come from any quarter, accidental or deliberate. Not enough or inappropriate communication often leads to hostility, and fights.

---------------SUGGESTIONS----------------------------------

I'd like to pull out some things in that thread, that I think are important points.

Communication first off.

Edit: I could make a feedback thread that says to PM me (and is locked), if you believe that will help.

<strike>This may actually help more than you realise. I do suggest you make one, so that people can look in the same place, as the other feedback threads, and see what to do. </strike> I see you have already done so. Good job. Feel free to close it if it gets out of hand. On the other hand leaving it as a place to vent might be helpful.

Faction Status post

While we are on that subject, the Faction Status post (and wiki) might need updating. There is nothing currently mentioned in the Faction Status thread about who to contact in case of emergency/complaint, and as you said the Phantoms have changed somewhat. There are characters that I know are Phantoms that are not yet on the list. Might be an idea to add (oorp) contact details. At least then if they are in there then they have no excuse, because they didn't read.

----------------------------------
From a Phantom perspective, some questions that would good to address or pull apart, to find a solution:

Darthbeck = and in terms of running away form him, i dont metagame. this character has never heard of the phantoms. me running away when i first saw him would be well, meta gaming.

and i will agree that my roleplay could've been better, but it wasent. but i did try and create more, while he did not. "who are you?" to which he replies "i am phantom. i am your death" and continues blasting me. all he seemed to want, was for me to try and run. which when i dident do, he screamed"why are you still sitting there?"

Montezuma/Kukulcan = Personally, i have been asked many times 'why r u shootin me?', every time, you should explain who you are, as the large percentage of people you meet are nubs, and have no clue who you are.

Violette = I don't think alot of Sirius actually knows who or what the Phantoms are...
Hyung = I think people would know, in that word of mouth. Space myths. Bar talks.
Whispers and such.

You're taking the stance that it would be hushed up?
Violette = They're relatively small, and the only mile stone that Sirius saw was the ashes of Planet Cambridge...

I'd see the Phantoms as Myths, Ghosts of space.
Aliens, people wouldn't recognise them at first sight and know exactly what they are...

Heck I bet half the people here don't even know any of the Phantom RP.

<div align="right]This is actually quite a good point I believe. How can the common guy know
about the Phantoms? What are some ways that would be feasible in RP, that could be
considered? I suggested Bars, Myth talk, Boogieman stories. So did Violette. There
have been a number of people that have survived the Phantom encounters. Is there
a to make Phantom backstory more accessible? More understandable? More available?


Is there a way to Roleplay as a Phantom (or Keeper) that lets them know the "victims" are in
mortal danger, without resorting to OORP Discovery Player Knowledge? (or in other cases, if they
really don't know.) I've struck this problem a few times before as a Keeper where someone
didn't know what I was. They literally had not played SP, and had just jumped on Multiplayer.
(I found this out later, at the time I was... perturbed that they didn't know what a nomad was.)

<div align="right]Is there places that could be seeded with ingame rumours, or real information that could tell people who
the phantoms are? Is secretiveness a good way now, with the way the Discovery server has gained
much more people, many of whom don't know anything about the phantoms? (Maybe that "successful encounters with Phantoms" needs to be linked from somewhere? Faction Status Post?)


-------------------------------
From a Freelancer Player perspective, How could I improve the chances of successfully RPing with a terrorist?
Don't play dumb is one. Realise that they can kill you is a good way.
Stop acting like you are already dead?

he did nothing that suggested there was ANY way of my getting out alive. if i had tried to run, he would ahve killed me. given the RP i've had with phantoms before as well, nothing i could've said wouldve stopped him from killing me.

In this case, the Freelancer Player already had an expectation of dying. Yet, beforehand the Freelancer Player stated that the Sirius Character did not know who the Phantoms were. I think that the apathy (to dying) would have shown through to the other Freelancer Player. This case, I believe, was where Out of game knowledge (that the Phantoms will "pewpewkill you" no matter what), influenced the actions of the ingame Sirius Character (who did not know about the Phantoms.)
Trying to avoid being killed (oorply), being apathetic, or just plain dumb ("kill me now because it's too expensive") is not a good way to go about RPing. That's avoidance, not RP.

It is very hard to "unlearn" something when you already know as a Player, something which your character does not. This Out of Game knowledge can very often make situations confusing, and contribute to your side of communication breakdowns. On the other hand it's also bad "common sense" to deliberately not use that knowledge, or assume something that might not actually be true. Case in point, the Phantoms (and Keepers) are not all about the pew pew, I guarantee it to you. You can use the knowledge that you "know", without "metagaming". For instance, as a Player, you know that Phantoms, and Keepers, are terrorists, and can kill anyone at will. You can use this knowledge, to take them seriously, in that they CAN kill you. But that does not mean they WANT to nor that they HAVE to, or WILL do.

<div align="right](No death penalty + can't be bothered = bad combination when faced with a terrorist.)
This is not about making Discovery more realistic, but approaching like that does help.
It will help you ask questions, and interact more. The other day I had an interaction with
3 LN's and 3 LSF's, and I was one Keeper. NOT ONE SHOT WAS FIRED. We had amazing
roleplay, and everyone went away stunned and amazed at the roleplay that developed.
It would ALSO have been totally in roleplay, if we had had a massive furball against one nomad.

The Phantoms are not here, just to kill. Thinking like that will influence your character's actions, and the Player sense of being that the Phantoms will receive from your characters. Thinking like that WILL get your character killed.

How you feel, and how you want to play shines through, quite obviously to the other Player who is interacting with you. Don't let apathy rob you of having great RP, NO MATTER WHO you face, be it Mon'star, Keeper, Phantom, Liberty Navy, or Lolwatting Corsair Capwhore.

<div align="right]Apathy is the real killer here, not the Keepers, or Phantoms. Apathy.
Get rid of it. Approach each encounter with new eyes. What can be learned here?
Focus on your own Roleplay, instead of "what that other person is or is not doing."
You can only ever be responsible for your own Roleplay. You can't force your Roleplay
on others. And yes, Phantoms kill you, that's not forcing their RP on you, that is them
doing exactly as they are supposed to do. Don't want them to kill you? Then talk.
Don't give excuses. Don't give apathy. Role-PLAY.

Have fun. Try to be creative, in your role-PLAY. That'll go further than you realise.

-------

I kinda got on a soapbox...I feel I needed to get that out. Took me a few hours to write it.:)
I don't think this was necessary since Virus made the feedback thread and stuff is happening
nicely in there. It just seemed such a waste to not post it.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far. I look forward to seeing you ingame.

---

Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.

[Cyberanson]

Thanks for bringing up so many points Hyung Soong. I think it is about time.

Basically I would like to encourage EVERYONE to act according to the characters RP. The most important statment is this:

Vanilla, You were a Hero, the main guy who saved the universe. Discovery, You are Joe Blogs. One among many.

You are NOT a hero and you have NO secret super powers, which can crush the enemies. Heck, I NEVER saw a player beg for his life or even ask to don't kill him, except for myself. People, get rid of the freaking testosterone and ACT. There is NO shame in begging for your life in a role play, because nobody gives a damn how you behave in real life.

And I bet you will rather wet your pants when facing death by a gun, then making cool statements.

Again: play your role!

P.S.:
Ah yes and SuperBeast: for this statement you are officially called counterproductive by me.

What comment? - Agmen

---

ALG Waste Disposal
Faction Status - Recruitment - Message Dump

Rheinland Military Information Center | Marinenachrichtendienst Central Computer

[Corsair]

Hyung, that was impressive. I read it all, and you make several great points. I think that both Phantoms and the rest of the player base need to be aware of proper Phantom etiquette. Phantoms, while having FREEDOM to kill and rampage, are not OBLIGATED to. I've had hostile encounters with Phantoms where we stopped mid-duel to deal with a mutual threat, then figured that we'd earned each other pentenance, and we parted ways.

---

[Jinx]

there has been a very positive change in the admin team lately... i have seen them publicly announce that they made wrong decisions. - i don t know how that came into being... but that is showing a touch of humanity and human error that every player can understand. - it gives players the feeling that they are no subjects, but beings. ( i seriously mean it - its a VERY positive thing... that might also have happened in the past... but not as a public apology to those falsly accused - that has not really happened in "the old days" )

why i say that? - phantoms - and many other exclusive factions have a tendency to paint the community "black and white". - you either are a flamer or you re a flamed - usually both end up in fire. but no one gives in, no one shows any concept of compromise.

it was mentioned in the other thread that i just read up. - it would be beneficial when "bad" roleplay was really acknowledged - also non ones own part. - i read stuff like "you get bad roleplay, so you are given bad roleplay" ( what utter rubbish is that - really ) it helps in a feedback to say that one has made mistakes. - that ones roleplay was really inappropriately bad in that situation. - everyone can understand that - everyone has done it. - what NO one can understand is when its said "my roleplay is always good, it is entirely your fault" - cause no one is so good to always give out good roleplay.

everyone ( without ANY exceptions ) gives brilliant roleplay one day - and utterly silly and stupid one another.



but to get to a point - how can phantoms ( and also those other factions having trouble expressing their exclusiveness ) improve their interaction?

i ll start with what they CANNOT do.

- they are no server police - so they must not act as such
- they must not exploit and abuse the greater freedom they have, they must instead JUSTIFY it.
- they must clearly separate out of character and in character ( what i saw in that video was two players bickering, one player however with a farmers alliance bomber ( i get to that later... ) and the other with a mining ship and no dps

*farmers alliance bomber? - don t the phantoms have their own ships now? - i can understand an old relic like the osiris staying with the phantoms - but the mamamoro is a 4.85 bomber in a base that is also hidden in a nebula and hidden from sensors. - no i have not read the story of how he got the bomber. - but such "flexible" use of stuff all around sirius makes people look suspiciously upon you. - really, it does. NO other faction can pick "whatever they like". - phantoms should really make a shiplist and stick to it... especially when they want to have their own ships and weapons.


what CAN they do.

- rethorical skills are not common. - a faction that wants to spread fear needs them.
- the problem with that is that phantoms appear to be handpicked based on popularity and pvp skills... which is a bad thing. - instead they should be picked MUCH more on their ability to roleplay ingame. - their ability to squeeze the maximum of meaning into the minimum of words required. - the way its done right now is a focussing on pvp - its like employing a plummer who is REALLY good at dancing; - the problem is, you want him to do the plumming works.
- they must introduce themselves and they also must sometimes let go. - not a day passes that i make a proper introduction to a trader as a pirate and he uses this time to get away - leaving me pretty silly standing there.... which sometimes leads to the very nasty reaction that the next player "pays for the player that got away" by getting a much shorter introduction. ( that is really a bad thing.... )


in general:

- fear is not given by saying "fear me" - fear is spread by calculated terroristic acts. - sometimes it doesn t even take a "blue message". - many a players fear phantoms ( even if their chars don t know them ) ... here is an example:

* some time ago - the keepers attempted to attack delta. - a handful of zoners gathered around the station. - we only defended ( meaning we stood there waiting ) - all the keepers did was hovering "just at the very rim of the detection range" - popping into targettable range briefly sometimes - appearing "from every direction" ... that situation lasted over 30 minutes! - the tension was high. - and then.... they retreated ! NO blue message... - that was "fear" roleplayed.

* had they just came and said "*** fear us, we are light ***" it would have been a laughing matter.



REAL fear is often subtle. - its the difference between a trash zombie movie where the people die by the second - and the horror movie that relies on subtle tension that slowly builds up and maybe hasn t even have to kill anyone.


these are the skills needed for such a faction - pvp skills are secondary.

---

Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Exsiled_one]

I have a point that wasn't really added yet.
When I see phantoms I see them needing a wingmate. They aren't invincible and I doubt they are lone menaces. Seeing two or three phantoms causing havoc somewhere always leads me to think that its a roleplay action. Seeing a loner causing havoc it always makes me think "aw there's someone who needs his pvp dosage"

---

<span style="color:#33CC00">I AM GIVING AWAY MONEY TO CREATIVE MINDS*</span>

[Darkard]

the problem with that is that phantoms appear to be handpicked based on popularity and pvp skills...

This is exactly how I feel about the Phantoms. Every name that comes up in thier roster sounds off in my head as "Forum Veteran" Or "Custom User Title"
Maybe thats beacuse they are picked because they have been here a long time and know how things work. But I'd like to think Im pretty savvy on the workings of Disco and I dont think my RP is that bad, but I'm a nobody around here and thus I would never be accepted.

---

0-499 posts: Your posts will be completely and utterly ignored.
500-999 posts: People will read your posts, but will never care for the content.
1000-2000 posts: Your posts will be read, your points may be considered, if you're lucky.
2001+ posts and custom title: Your opinion matters.

<div align="right">QFT</div>

[Eppy]

phantoms - and many other exclusive factions have a tendency to paint the community "black and white". - you either are a flamer or you re a flamed - usually both end up in fire. but no one gives in, no one shows any concept of compromise.

My observations now have credibility.

Apathy is the real killer here, not the Keepers, or Phantoms. Apathy.

Tell that to the Phantoms! It's not just regular players, you know - you talk like the Phantoms are free of any responsibility for the failure of RP in their encounters, when I think that they are the cause of that failure.

Nobody is going to solve anything with threads. No matter how you put it, the majority of players don't read the forums, and on top of that, the players that do are not going to undergo a miraculous change of perspective because of a post. If the Phantoms want better RP interaction they're going to need to show to players, one at a time, in-game, that they are not trying to blow them up. There is no fast, easy solution to this problem, it's going to take a huge wad of elbow grease and a change in the entire faction's playing style. If they want better RP they're going to have to do it themselves in-game, not demand it on the forums and then paint everybody who objects to their statements as flamers (no, Phantom Does Not Equal Flamer, but Flamer Can Equal Phantom).

---

Quick comment - we thought that Panzer was the Leader, Swift. -Agmen

Which Dreadnought was that?

One of your nine.

[tansytansey]

remove phantoms

Yes, lets remove everything from the game that causes even the slightest bit of grief. Then we can all enjoy our tasteless gruel.

Personally, I like the idea of Phantoms and Keepers and the SCRA. But I do not like the way said factions are executed. That is, every time I see one of these factions in Liberty I face palm. Each of these factions base themselves on the edges of Sirius, and each of them have similar goals. To wipe out the Four Houses.

I know you say Vanilla is not Discovery and all but... hello? The Nomads lost the war. Why the crap are they sending 1-2 fighters into Liberty, the single most central and powerful house in Sirius. (Arguable, I'm ignoring Gallia in this discussion.) You are not an Army. You are a handful of Nomads. Liberty has a massive fleet, go there and you are going to die.
Same with Phantoms. You're far from home in hostile territory. Wars are not fought by bypassing all of your opponents defences and killing people in the Capital. You might as well just by flying ships into 20 feet of concrete.

That's why it just ticks me off whenever I see Phantoms or Keepers or SCRA in Liberty. It's like they have no sense of military strategy at all. They need to be more like the QCP, who seem to have it down. They're doing the same thing, operating far from home in extremely hostile space. Yet they're doing it right. They're not going in there and spouting **ohlolol everyone die** over system chat. It just doesn't make sense to me... in Vanilla in order to infiltrate the Houses the Nomads had to slowly take over the bodies of people in the edge worlds until they managed to get into the heirachy and gain control of Rhienlands diplomatic figures. Then they started to attack the houses. Right now, the Nomads have nothing, they were completely wasted by the Hypergate. They should be trying to rebuild their strategies and right now all I see the Keepers doing is being 'just another pvp faction.' Same with Phantoms, their only goal seems to be to kill stuff.
That might not be what your factions are about, and I respect there's a lot of RP behind it, but remember you make an impression on every character you meet in game. And so far I've been less than impressed. The SCRA I don't have an opinion on, because I've only seen them once, and they weren't so bad. But every time I see a Phantom it's the same RP over and over again. Kill everything. Today when I was playing my Gaian I ran into a Phantom traveling through Tau. My first thought was. "Crap, he's going to shoot us and ruin our day."
Is that what you want people to be thinking out of character when ever you bump into them? We ran away from the Phantom and came back after he left. Why? Because I knew no matter when I said, he only had one thing on his mind: kill everything.

And you've pretty much given them the tools to do it.

I like the idea of Keepers, Phantoms and all that. I just don't like the way they're being played. Most factions like that have given me bad impressions, I believe factions that have a heavily PvP orientated RP about them, such as the Keepers, Phantoms, and even Xenos and such, should be more inclined to give players a good impression, that you're not all about the 'pew pew.'

---

http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv46/Ni...gcloudscopy.png
Image turned into a URL because it made your sig too tall. -Zuke
|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes &quot;Nighthawk&quot; Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[teschy]

Nighthawk, before assuming that the Nomads were 'wasted', which was 18 years ago in the storyline, why don't you read the Nomad Lore instead, and see what you've missed.

[Treewyrm]

That's why it just ticks me off whenever I see Phantoms or Keepers or SCRA in Liberty. It's like they have no sense of military strategy at all.

Why do aliens have to conform to your human sense of military strategy given the drastic difference in biology, psychology and even goals you don't even know but can only sit and make hypothesis of.

Aliens doesn't always have to make sense in human sense, you know. The more you learn about them from their side the more you begin to understand why things are done that, but to see you have to see through them it all.

They're little sneaky bastards, you know. May be you should check a little more on who they really are, what are their methods and why rather than that? You could ask me in PM for instance (or talk at Skype as alternative), I'm looking forward seeing your genuine questions in my PM box and will be happy to answer to you. Unfortunately I have never seen at least one, it kinda makes me wonder how truly you are concerned, but hopefully that isn't true and you can prove that whenever you have the time for, I'm all ears. While at it I'd like to note that others have asked (for instance Linkus who seem quite enjoying asking me those type of questions) and I did as much as I could within non-spoiling boundaries permitted helping them to understand things they previously did not.

Why the crap are they sending 1-2 fighters into Liberty, the single most central and powerful house in Sirius.

Unfortunately it's just like "the single most central and powerful house in Sirius" apparently can't deal with the pesky piracy problem once and for all, the problem that has been itching for quite a long time, and I am simply forced to note the obvious. On the contrary even, considering modern pirate arsenal now includes gunboats and much larger vessels too, state of the art armaments and equipment, pretty often matching those of military class (I suppose majority were derived and reserve-engineered from military weapons in the first place). Astonishingly in the period between vanilla Freelancer and current day Discovery a lot of things seem have changed, if that wasn't of any surprise to anyone here. All in all, taking into account these and many other factors I suppose then it isn't all that powerful. Still supremacy unchallenged, or is it not?

Right now, the Nomads have nothing, they were completely wasted by the Hypergate. They should be trying to rebuild their strategies and right now all I see the Keepers doing is being 'just another pvp faction.

There are numerous methods to archive various goals, problem at it's root is that you don't even know what those goals are. I see many things around, and not always what I see is what it is, matters of perception vary from individual to individual greatly. Come and see from various perspectives, divulge into the deeper secrets and how they are truly related to other factions around, but of course that would require a substantial effort and a pair of very good ears and eyes, plus a few important contacts would also be of great help, and listening to every little leaf on the wind to uncover conspiracies. I can lend you a private detective hat (no, not mexican).

I like the idea of Keepers, Phantoms and all that. I just don't like the way they're being played.

Join them, make your constructive suggestions, put forth ideas on the table, I'm all ears but where are they?

Impressions vary greatly due to the fact they're influenced by many aspects, some of which are not even related to one's faction performance around or even personalities behind the character in a said faction. Factors such as strong prejudice, mixing personal opinion and own's character in-roleplay opinion are common around. Voices that matter are important, but not every voice is important.

They need to be more like the QCP, who seem to have it down.

I am sorry, but they are QCP, and we are Nomads. Don't you see the difference? More important do you really think there should be no difference? Oh and while at it wasn't there an incident with the zoners resulted in a massive public and off-public cry? That isn't what I'm looking for. To each own.

Right now, the Nomads have nothing, they were completely wasted by the Hypergate.

Seriously? Well then I suppose all what has been made in all this period and introduced in 4.85 are not existing. Are you sure we're playing the same mod version? Please check your installation, I'm sure you'll find plenty new interesting things if you look for them, not that they're hidden, thanks to the spoiling map so conveniently provided along with the mod distribution.