Faction Right 2 and 5

[Agmen of Eladesor]

I have a question regarding roleplay interactions.

If the official faction follows the rules and issues an order under Faction Right 2, under what circumstances - if any - would they not be allowed to immediately follow that up with a Faction Right 5 if the FR2 orders were not followed?

Faction Right 2 reads:

RIGHT 2) Official factions have authority over players of the same NPC affiliation, as long as RP justification is provided. This authority applies in forums and in-game, and applies to player faction diplomacy, and strategic and tactical direction. However, exercise of that authority, on the forums and in game, is restricted to official faction members with the rank of the official faction leader and one rank below him/her. The authority may be exercised through the use of in-game in-RP orders, which, if not obeyed, can result in in-game in-RP consequences (arrest, court martial, and even "lethal" force in extreme circumstances). Official Factions cannot, under any cicrumstances, require another player to follow non-canon RP if that player doesn't want to.

In other words, if the Faction Leader or 2iC provides an order in game or on the forums, it's not up to the indy player to decide whether the RP is justified or justifiable, as was explained here:

INTENT OF RIGHT NUMBER 2:

The intent of this right is to allow official faction leadership to also provide leadership, with discretion, to independent players, to improve server gameplay, fairplay, and roleplay.
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2) Official factions that are attempting to represent the entirety of a NPC affiliation have the responsibility to be caretakers of the history and evolving storyline of the NPC faction in such a way that it remains open to involvement by non-player faction affiliates to the extent that is permitted by the server rules.

As long as there is no conflict with the server rules, then, an indy would be required to follow the orders from the official faction, and there was no issue with an indy and canon RP. For example, if an indy Corsair pilot came across a BHG| pilot in Delta and the leader of the Sails told him not to attack under FR2 due to the Non Agression Pact, the indy pilot could ignore that order. Or the head of the [LN] couldn't tell an indy pilot to take out all the civilian ID'd level 5 starfleas in Penn, as that would violate server rules.

But - the head of a faction can tell someone where to - or where not to - deploy if the faction has reasoning behind it. Especially if there is underlying reason as well for those orders.

Now we get to FR5:

RIGHT 5) Official factions may request that the reputation of a player's ship be changed to hostile with respect to their NPC faction.

Would not disobeying a direct order be cause for nearly an automatic FR5? If an LN indy told the head of the [LN] that he wasn't going to follow his orders in combat, he'd be put up against the wall and shot if caught. While an FR5 is normally something that should be a last resort, there have been several instances where groups have 'gone rogue' against the main faction. Thus, an FR5 would be more along the lines of denying this person docking rights with his own faction.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Enoch]

Well, regarding the rules, they can get FR5ed for that. I think.

However, what is going to happen if they can't dock on BHG bases anymore ? (I'm assuming you are talking about the Core Caps but I may be wrong.)
Wouldn't that make the situation even worse ?
I'm not aware of BHG Core travelling rights in house space but this may be a little too much.

But yeah, since your post is about "can it be done" rather than "should it be done", I think there is no problem rule-wise.

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[AeternusDoleo]

If every indy and their mother is allowed to "go rogue", then what point is there to the official factions? This is a RP server - if people want to RP being rebels, go ahead, but use the faction that most closely resembles the behaviour you are demonstrating - not the faction you want to slander or annoy most - and make sure your actions are within the bounds placed by the faction you join.

And no Nekrataal: This is not much, this is not even enough. Independants are the grunts of organizations they belong to. The transport captains, the mining grunts, the scrap collectors... the people who do the job of the faction they are a part of. Independant characters DO NOT do politics for their parent faction, and MAY NOT violate those politics. So if your parent faction (be it BHG or IMG, or LN or whatever) informs you there's a reason that capital ships have a restricted zone of operation for that faction - then consider that as an order from a superior.

If you want to go rogue, drop the ID, as well as the faction specific ships and weaponry. Can't live with the constraints of the guild you play? Then you don't get the perks. The restrictions politics place are reasonable and will not interfere with the faction's primary function in the game.

[Edit] As for consequences: In addition to cutting off docking rights, you cut off supply - so the offending characters would not be able to repair damaged ships anymore, especially capital ships. IE those ships should kapoof once they are destroyed after the FR5. But I doubt admins will go that far sadly - so the mess remains with captains (and players) who consistently flip the bird in the face of the official factions.

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Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.

Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.

[Jinx]

FR5 is a roleplay element more than a rule element....

so - what you need to keep in mind is:

- you only have so many resources - and your most important goal is to keep more of yours and less of "theirs" - that is the principle of warfare - the more of yours remain the better it is.

- then there are two kinds of losses. - direct losses caused by deaths - sometimes unavoidable but necessary in some tactics..... and losses that you loose and the enemy gains - or losses that bind more forces of yours to the aid - so they don t appear opposing the enemy ( like mines not killing but crippling )

FR5 are .... since we are immortal and also usually get away with a unscratched skin.... tough losses. - cause someone that is FR5ed might end up fighting against you - so you have not only lost someone - but you also strengthened your enemy.



we have to keep that one in mind on a ROLEPLAY level. - expelling someone means - creating another enemy. - it must always be a last resort - even if it CAN be applied for a lot less than a last resort.


someone that tends not to listen to orders "which are backed up in a transparent way in the roleplay, which is also comprehensible by the players affected" - can be reassigned to another area - if he still does not listen - he can be demoted his "captainship" and asked to step down ( which a player won t do - cause it wasn t the faction providing the rank and the ship - but the player himself - so it is also not the factions right to take what wasn t given ) .... and only when that character becomes "almost as disruptive" as an enemy - he should be FR5ed - cause that will literally make him an enemy.


FR5 is a "desperate measure" - not a sanction nor an easy way out. regard it as a PURE roleplay element - when someone acts HOSTILE to you - but refused to adjust his reputation accordingly ( like he shoots you down - but keeps a green rep with your NPCs ) - then FR5 makes the most sense, cause he IS hostile already

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[hribek]

I think that it depends on how militaristic the faction in question is. Personally, I don't think pushing for reputation adjustments should be the #1 choice because of paperwork involved if not anything else (alternatives are simple disciplinary punishments, something totally funny, just blowing them up on the spot and not bothering with it onwards, etc.). Again, I think it should be handled differently in different factions.

[Schatten Research Facility]

There are things that a faction leader can do that does not involve fr5. Orders of a faction leader can be enforced through lethal means if necessary, meaning that if there are rogue vessels refusing to comply with the leader's orders, then the leader can have them shot. Repeatedly.

[Agmen of Eladesor]

There are things that a faction leader can do that does not involve fr5. Orders of a faction leader can be enforced through lethal means if necessary, meaning that if there are rogue vessels refusing to comply with the leader's orders, then the leader can have them shot. Repeatedly.

And that's part of the point. Yeah, you can shoot someone repeatedly. But after a while, you get tired of that, especially when they're not willing to listen.

Note that even when that Apocalypse crew went rogue with us, we still had good RP with Apoc Now. Heck, I still have good RP with him under his new name - he's fun and funny.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[FraserTE]

And that's part of the point. Yeah, you can shoot someone repeatedly. But after a while, you get tired of that, especially when they're not willing to listen.

Note that even when that Apocalypse crew went rogue with us, we still had good RP with Apoc Now. Heck, I still have good RP with him under his new name - he's fun and funny.

Thing is agmen Right now You Cannot force me to follow non cannon rp. You Do not have an rp reason to keep me out of omega 7 SO you went all OOC in the communication channel and try to throw rules at me.

As long as i am within the bounds that my id allows there is absolotyly 100% nothing you can do.

Now Core does not follow BHG rp i am folllowing BHG rp there are rogue capital ships running around omega 7 and i am not causing any harm to anybody.

So as i have said before. Change the id ( wich most likely will not happen or will not get approved )
or shutup.

Or even a better one. give us our BHG guard id back and you can have your Core ID I do not want to follow your Core RP i want to follow the BHG and if you even bother to check the rules the ID always will override the rules in most suitations.

So long as i am operating within the limits my id states and the other capital ships in omega 7. Just bugger off.

and as far as your first post goes Those orders were 6 months old Rp orders tend to wear off after a month You basically telling me to go patroll an empty system 90% of the time.

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http://signavatar.com/15890_s.gif
First: You've got a picture in there that's 800x286 pixels. The maximum signature size is 700x250.
Second: Your other picture in the rotation fills the full 700x250 boundaries by itself.
With an image that big, you can't fit any text below it. Please fix this.
-Zuke

A sane man must become insane to look sane
In an insane world.

[mjolnir]

The parts that you left out, give some examples

INTENT OF RIGHT NUMBER 2:

The intent of this right is to allow official faction leadership to also provide leadership, with discretion, to independent players, to improve server gameplay, fairplay, and roleplay.

This right is NOT intended to provide the official faction leadership the right to exercise power for its own sake.

An example of "good" exercise of these rights is to require an independent player to not utilize a heavy captial ship against a smaller lone fighter or bomber, or to not enter an existing fight where entering the fight would unbalance it greatly, or to require the independent player to take action or not take action in support of good RP. (ie, ordering the escort of a diplomat, or something equally creative)

An example of "bad" exercise of this right would be to require the player to patrol an empty system, for no particular reason. Requiring the independent to investigate a particular suspicious ship, though, would be legitimate.

An offical faction consistently abusing this right, could lose it at the Admins' discretion.

Telling people to go somewhere for no particular reason = wrong
Telling people to capgank a lone fighter = good
... and then there's all the grey between

RESPONSIBILITIES ASSOCIATED WITH RIGHT 5

Factions may only do this after they have interacted with the character in role play. Faction leaders should post reputation change requests in the Special Role Play section with a link to the forum evidence.


Example: The LPI could request that a smuggler be made hostile to them but only after conducting some sort of role play around this situation. A role play trial conducted on the forum with the evidence would be a good way to do this. Note that the reputation change may be temporary as the smuggler is free to buy a bribe to fix the reputation.

Example: An Outcast pirates fellow Outcasts in front of Alpha. He has been warned numerous times by Independents, Official Factions & players representing the Outcast Government. He either never responds to PM's or states " No speak English" . Screen shots are taken for evidence. With said evidence, he could be listed as Hostile to the Outcast even if he is one.
[/b]

Think this answers your question

If the official faction follows the rules and issues an order under Faction Right 2, under what circumstances - if any - would they not be allowed to immediately follow that up with a Faction Right 5 if the FR2 orders were not followed?

The above examples mention "some sort of roleplay around this situation, ex. role play trial on forum" and "warned numerous times".

Neither of these two examples seem to go well with "immediately".

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[FraserTE]

The fact of the matter is until you change the id There is nothing you can do.

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http://signavatar.com/15890_s.gif
First: You've got a picture in there that's 800x286 pixels. The maximum signature size is 700x250.
Second: Your other picture in the rotation fills the full 700x250 boundaries by itself.
With an image that big, you can't fit any text below it. Please fix this.
-Zuke

A sane man must become insane to look sane
In an insane world.