Athens & the Instability of Freedom

[Xoria]

How do freedom, free will, revelation, philosophy, the Athenian experiment in democracy, and history all tie together? Can freedom last? Can we survive it's consequences? Andre Glucksmann explores the answers in a piercing article in City Journal.

http://city-journal.org/2010/20_4_histor...eedom.html

Just two excerpts below, but I highly recommend the entire article. I hope that both of you who read it, enjoy it as much as I did.

By the way, since so many have been questioning the way this community is administrated, there are some clues within this article to understanding both the underlying causes of these problems, and the overreactions to them. They are not necessarily within these brief excerpts, however.
Excerpt:

Athens taught us that free will and critical thinking go together. The necessity of submitting celestial voices and their dictates to the painstaking criticisms of reason is a matter not of pride but of modesty: it is not because I think myself good or intelligent, but because I know I am fallible and capable of deceiving myself...
To listen to voices without ever questioning them is superstition. To fail to examine the authenticity of one's commitments is arrogance. The combination of superstition and arrogance yields fanaticism: God is in me, and I am in God; there is no point in thinking, since my brain already occupies a little part of paradise. Free thought, by contrast, requires us to look reality, including unfortunate reality, in the eye.

To discover one's freedom is to recognize a capacity for self-intoxication and self-deception, and thus to condemn oneself to doubt. This experience of freedom is primary for a current of modern philosophy, just as it was for the thinkers of antiquity.

Thought question: what do you do with this doubt? Does/should it lead to action or passivity?

Excerpt:

It happens that Athens's ultimate problem was this hybris, this loss of measure, which always threatens freedom. As Thucydides showed, this imprudence was at once the motor of Athenian liberty and the cause of its fall. Athens was not always able to find the right mean between movement and rest, innovation and conservation, expansion and restriction. It pitched drunkenly between those poles and ultimately smashed against the reefs of impetuousness.

In light of Athens's difficulties, Aristotle makes the question of the right mean the central problem of philosophy. Virtue consists of the right mean, meaning not indecision or softness but a point of equilibrium (which we must always rediscover) of human freedom. For freedom invariably produces disequilibrium. To live freely, in other words, is constantly to seek equilibrium within disequilibrium. Aristotle counsels neither pure rest nor extreme movement. It can even happen that excess can be good'€”in a situation characterized by excess. The right mean is determined by suitability to the challenges of the world and of the moment. This is the antidote to hybris.

This reminds me of Barry Goldwater's statement at a Presidential nominating convention in 1964: "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"
And this also from Goldwater:
"Those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth. And let me remind you, they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyrannies. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed. Their mistaken course stems from false notions of equality, ladies and gentlemen. Equality, rightly understood...leads to liberty and to the emancipation of creative differences. Wrongly understood, as it has been so tragically in our time, it leads first to conformity and then to despotism."
http://city-journal.org/2010/20_4_histor...eedom.html

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[Ratsepue]

By the way, since so many have been questioning the way this community is administrated, there are some clues within this article to understanding both the underlying causes of these problems, and the overreactions to them. They are not necessarily within these brief excerpts, however.

Personnally I think the problems here have more to do with honnesty/dishonnesty and respect/disrespect than with different interpretations of freedom.

Arrogance too, but on a person-to person level and not on the level of thought that he mentions somewhere in the beginning.

But please do explain what you mean there.

Oh yeah...

And I think the author ends the article on a somewhat naive and simplistic note with that shoe-throwing anecdote, saying how that re-assured him.
Nice to know that you can throw a shoe at the president without getting your nose cut off, but I think a lot of people would trade that "privilege" right back in in exchange for other things they lost in that war.
Sounds the author is more trying to re-assure himself.

[Mannock]

The Fall of Athens (and other Greek polis) was not due to democracy (indeed, quite sui generis).
Bad example or poor explanation, the problem is that here are people with too much power (either by controlling different factions or by connections.) The rules are for everyone and when there are people above them, something is wrong.
All we build the game every day, no matter if you're the head of faction, a member or an independent. Too many people with power who believe that the game belongs to them and that's a mistake, a mistake. You can not be judge and party.

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[Dab]

This is not an Experiment Successful.

I'm also trying to decide if this is political discussion or a history lesson.

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[Dab]

Its a general discussion, Dab.

Go take your "look at me I have the power to lock this if I wanted" somewhere else.

"Look at me I have the power to make flamey posts go away if I wanted."

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[Mannock]

Both Dab, both.

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[Durandal]

In my experience it has more to do with giving a cynic the scenario he expects will happen.

Which only reinforces cynicism and bitterness.

Hell, half the complaining around here isn't because of the rules. The rules are big and bulky and clumsy, but they work. It's more or less about people having their roleplay crushed by the system because somebody, somewhere up top, didn't like them having a spine.

[n00bl3t]

"Look at me I have the power to make flamey posts go away if I wanted."

Only in certain circumstances. (This is proposing you do not see all flames, as you are human, not that you are a biased, power-abusing moderator, before some over-exaggerated interpretation of my posts sees arcane consequences.)

Anyway, back to the topic, after Dab's off-topic moderation post.

"The man who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself." - Friedrich Nietzsche.

I have a feeling this quote applies a slight bit to your post Xoria. (The second bit.)

I know that it is true, since it can be seen that measures against players have become harsher, and to promote "fun", the measures to do so have actually created a less "fun" environment. (Or, I could be wrong, since according to the first bit I, along with everyone else, see things through my own viewpoints and bias.)

As for whether doubt leads to passivity or action; it leads to both. Each person makes a choice. The net overall choice of people affect what direction a group takes.

Also, I have a feeling that articles of power regarding Foucault should be linked.

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[Guest]

"The man who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself." - Friedrich Nietzsche.

Just to point out that the quote is incorrect. The quote is actually along the lines of:

"Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one."

Bringing Nietzsche quotes into a thread concerning Athenian philosphy is quite a bad idea. Applying it, even slightly, to Athenian philosphy is a horrific idea. Especially as the core philosphy of the two is on two, relatively seperate, sides of the equation.

[n00bl3t]

Just to point out that the quote is incorrect. The quote is actually along the lines of:

"Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one."

Bringing Nietzsche quotes into a thread concerning Athenian philosphy is quite a bad idea. Applying it, even slightly, to Athenian philosphy is a horrific idea. Especially as the core philosphy of the two is on two, relatively seperate, sides of the equation.

"Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird."

Actual quote.

Quite sure what you read was Friedrich Hebbel's earlier, similar statement.

Although, I may be wrong, and it all depends on the translation of the above. ("There are no facts, only interpretations.")

Either way, I said I may be wrong due to my own bias and viewpoints, although I am interested in how specifically my statement conflicts with what Xoria is presenting.

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.