To me, old school is declaring war before the act. Attacking before the declaration (or indeed AS the declaration - a real no-no here) is akin to Pearl Harbour, invading belgium, landing your soldiers at hastings, etc etc.
It does achieve a short-term aim - hit the enemy hard, when they least expect it. Please bear in mind that the same tactic may well be tried on you, and you may well not have time to get the traders safely out of the system, get the bomber squadrons lined up and station battleships over the jumpholes to mop up errant/fleeing fighters.
However, I think that if you were to loudly announce your presence through system chat in the systems between your home and the enemies, basically telling any traders that a storm is a-brewing, they'll have time to warn the lads back home, and duck out of your way, thus:
'Trader <name>, be advised that the <system> is off limits for the duration of this lawfully appointed military operation. Seek alternative docking facilities.'
Then when you enter the target system, the fleet commander/battle-leader should give the initial orders of disposition in clear, thus:
'Capital ships <name1> and <name2> designated firegroup gold, leader name1. cap ships <name 3 and <name4> firegroup silver, leader name 3'
'Alpha, target enemy capital ships. Bravo, run interference for Alpha.
gold, silver select own targets. Charlie, support gold, Delta support silver
Echo, recon and reserves'
'All teams remember the importance of radio code <code1> and <code2>
Maintain radio silence until first contact. Echo squadron, move out.'
There's no way thats not enough rp! and with four/five full lines of text, thats enough time for the opposing forces to get their capships out of drydock, refit them and paint them pretty colours too.
Hoodlum said:
Work out a raid with the Corsairs in advance if all you want to do is fly big ships, so they can put up a reasonable defence force
i.e. weekly battleslot for cap-ship battles. However, a mixed force would be more in keeping with a military engagement, and would probably be looked upon more kindly by the gentleman with glowing green eyes...
Don't get me wrong. Normal BHG caps shouldn't be used to do any kind of invading, they're expensive and rare ships that should only be used for blowing the Order back to the stone age, hunt Nomad biggies (which, I will grudgingly accept, is IRP) and defending their all-too-rare home stations.
What's worrying me is that the whole 'fair play' (term 'fair' used very loosely, as the subjective nature is determined by the leadership's current feelings on the matter) attitude is being taken too far. Am I suddenly going to be required to file a release form to invade Gamma if the Outcast forces want to bring a Battleship or two? I'm all for making fun events, but are we going to outlaw old-school invasions? It used to be that we had somebody watching the comms at all times for Corsair movements. I still pull it up about once every five minutes when I actually get a chance to get in-game on a warship (which is rare). It's like we're trying to formalize everything. Every raid, every battle, has to be an event now. Pardon me, but RP does not involve telling your enemy you're coming unless you want a formalized event. Meticulously planning who comes to what event is crazy. You spend more time haggling with your enemy over balance instead of blowing them up (not to mention both sides can log on an unknown number of reinforcements at any time). Invasions don't wait.
@ Firstbold: But eleven?
@ Secondbold: I always watch the comms for enemy movement. The second an outcast thinks about moving into Eta, I put up a warning of possible invasion. Then I use the "long range scanners" to determine the likelihood of capital ships or not. ((Level)) This can tell me the range of what to expect and then I know what ships we need to counter attack with. This method is not perfect, nor should it be. This is the best RP way in my opinion to determine incoming attacks. RPing longe range scanners, that aren't always perfect should work fine.
Announcing incoming attacks is counter productive and is shooting yourself in the foot.
I agree with Eppy.
However I do believe large capital invasions 4-6+ should be avoided unless it is a planned RP event. Still no announcing on the spot, it would just be expected with the planned event.
Yes can we please have a little less hysteria and slightly more common sense?
You can show up in an invasion unannounced, You can mosey on down there and pew pew till the cows come home. Bring a battleship, bring two, hey, for the fun of it, bring 3! Dont bring TEN. Dont bring a force that screams: UNFAIR EVEN BY GENGHIS KHAN'S STANDARDS.
TEN is not fair, by any vast stretch of the imagination, Ten is silliness, you are not looking for a good fight you are looking to kill everything left right and centre without them having a chance of doing anything in return.
THIS is not on.
Use a little bit of common sense and fairness, you want to raid gamma and you can see that there are a couple of Battleships down there, fine, bring some battleships, mix your force up, bombers, fighters., battleships whatever - think about it, project yourselves out of your own heads for 5 seconds and think "There are 5 lvl 56 Corsairs in Gamma right now, so.. should i take a force of fighters and bombers or should i take ten battleships..." Think about what the other player might like as well.
It doesn't have to be the exact same strength of fleet, it doesn't have to match ship for ship, it doesn't have to be completely balanced, it doesn't have to be announced (though announcing a fight is to be encouraged if there are large numbers of ships involved) It just has to be more or less FAIR.
And there WILL be unfair fights on the server, battleships will kill fighters, bombers will gank caps - happens every day, what we are talking about here is avoiding blatant actions - both sides should preferably enjoy the fight in someway.
If this was the first and only time this happened, i bet hoodlum didn't take the steps he did this time. But as we all know, this wasn't the first time. In fact this was probably the 10th time that week. 9 out of 10 engagements with bountyhunters invading gamma (i don't know about other places) are with an all-cap fleet or close to it (1 lost bomber/fighter, rest cruisers/battleships).
The following is towards the bountyhunters, not towards the TS.
For once, take an example out of all the other factions that are at war with the corsairs.
SCRA - I never seen them in anything bigger then bombers
RHA - I never seen them in anything bigger then bombers (only saw a lost gunship when we raided their system)
Outcasts - They usually come in fighters. If they ever bring a capital ship, it's been announced beforehand. I don't recall ever seeing the outcasts with anything bigger then a gunboat in gamma.
Then there's the silly explanation you lot come up with; "In real life the elem..." STOP. In real life, the system's defence grid would have dealt with you before planet crete showed up on the long-range scanners. In real life traders fear for their lives. In real life only organizations can buy a battleship or 2 (instead of every independent freedom fighter). In real life you loose your ship once it's destroyed. I don't see you living up to that kind of realism... so why complain about this?
I wouldn't interpret this whole thing as anything unusual or as reflecting on how most gameplay functions throughout the server. It's a BHG habit, pure and simple, like crack smoking or biting your fingernails. The BHG shipyards are two jumps from Gamma, aand a lot of bored BHG pilots twiddling their thumbs decide to go stomp on some people. The response is swift and backed up with a general statement of what is expected on the server. There's nothing really new in the admin response, it simply took the form of direct action rather than sanctions after the fact. Surely that's a good thing.
The Corsairs seem to get a lot of that kind of treatment. It's irritating as hell to get so unceremoniously ganked, but that's the game from time to time.
It's not entirely a one way street too. There was an impromptu trawl through Bretonia by 5 corsair gb's and a Gaian osiris on Bretonia last night, and while it was pretty unenjoyable to
have ALL of them firing in me in my wee bomber
have the only RP from them be the words "Enaging"
have one or two of them log off and back on once their buddies had arrived
that kind of thing is a rare enough experience for me. At least the assorted Bret lawfuls had a reasonable chance of tackling five GB's. And I am bearing in mind that this happened after a trio of Benitez were soundly routed in Cambridge by a large squad of other fighters and bombers. Sure the BAF could rally reinforcements pretty quickly to deal with that, but the GB fleet took a little longer to organise against. I imagine the BHG fleets take a little more organisation.
Thing is, I know the Benitez. I know them well enough to know they won't try to kill me without at least some chance of letting me have my say, in RP or with my guns. At least if they do turn up in immense numbers and with the big guns, they will have a solid reason for it.
As for raids? Generally speaking, you don't perform a bank raid in a Sherman tank. Well, maybe sometimes if you really don't like the bank manager or you need the cash.
11 capships and the gunships? Put it this way, you NEVER see raids being carried out in barghests and huntresses or something equally easy to shoot down. It's hardly going to happen. The raid that prompted this recent debate fully deserved the response and in no way reflects the spirit of fair play that I believe most players believe in.
' Wrote:You can show up in an invasion unannounced, You can mosey on down there and pew pew till the cows come home. Bring a battleship, bring two, hey, for the fun of it, bring 3! Dont bring TEN. Dont bring a force that screams: UNFAIR EVEN BY GENGHIS KHAN'S STANDARDS.
Actually there was 13-14 ships in our Fleet that day.....
There were 2 BS's....2 BC's.....1destroyer.....2 bombers and 6-7 gunships
So when we went in Gamma...we didnt wanted an Overkill....There were at least 15 ships in gamma in that moment....se we were there like 10 min's no shooting...nothing....just RP-ing and positioning our fleet at d4 sector and making formation....And gave opponent all the time to gather their forces....After that server went down...And some members of our fleet (bombers) didnt came back..when we came back one of our gunship's was already in Bastille...I wrote message to all our and corsairs ships....that we wont enagage them and that they dont engage us until issue with admin is solved....Every minute one of our ships were sent to Bastille....
Since i know Corsairs from many battles....After 15 min they would have at least 30 ships + Order cap ship support (like day before when 2-3 Osiris and 1 Legate came on us plus 15 or more bombers+2 cruisers and 5-6 gunboats against our 6 caps...it was awesome battle...we lost...but we took also many Corsair ships down (aprox 12-14 ) and congratulate each others on good and fair battle)..This also would been a fair battle if u ask me....If we went there with Fighters...We would be the ones who would get overkilled...
BTW In every Movie that i've watched...Where as example Aliens attack earth...They dont came with fighters or bombers....They came with Super huge fleet of cap ships....Becouse they came to whipe of whole humanity....And they also would use fighters and bombers...but mostly for operations in Earth atmosphere...
I know we didnt came to whipe out corsairs....we came to take down as much Corsair ships as we can....And trust me The fight would be fair....Some of corsairs were even dissapointed becouse the fight was not going to happen
Hm, I feel really no sorry for the 'Sairs here.
Some poor Hunter got sanctioned, well, the decicion about that was made and is out of the range of things I wish to talk about....
//from BH-Gundam:
"...se we were there like 10 min's no shooting...nothing....just RP-ing and positioning our fleet at d4 sector and making formation....And gave opponent all the time to gather their forces......"
Isnt that fair enough?
And second: The Sairs didnt get it that a 11 Capship counting Fleet is on the way to Gamma? Huh, noone on the scanners as always?; well, my beloved Sairs, seem you overslept the raid on your planet.
Ah, the good old Hunter times Iam remembering right now...
Into Gamma, getting raped epically and than moving on to somewhere.
Heh, I can remember times that we also moved into Gamma and get raped and we didnt want to fight them.; we havent even been there for that.
It could be hard for a Hunter to pass Gamma if he wants to reach the Freeport in Theta.
Some Sairs tend to shoot at Hunter if they see them; and if than get shot at, call the cavallery.
And the reason I dont worry for the Sairs is also easy.... Evertime I tried to pass Gamma in my shiny little Gunship called a Orca, I need to RUN as fast as I can before ANY of the Sairs mentioned me in that system and call some of his friends.
And there is another reason I dont cry for the Sairs... and also not for any of the Hunter.
I just need to have a look at Delta and what will I find.... Capships all the way, from the Sairs, the Zoners, the Order and the BHG; Capships whereever you can look at.
But anyways; a little hint to all the Cap-Lovers in the BHG; try a Fleet of 2 BC, 2 GS; some bombers and a massive amount of LF's to annoy yor opponent to death. That will probably work and give you win.
' Wrote:....Some of corsairs were even dissapointed becouse the fight was not going to happen
You'd be surprised how many Corsairs were releived that they don't have to stop doing what they were doing just to log their caps and wipe out BH cap fleet again.
It actually is quite annoying when you'll getting pm that tells you to log your cap because theres a BH fleet in gamma again.Especially when you're in a middle of forcing adv. train to pay your LF for passage. Much more fun then to log cruiser/BS and do "target -> right click" scenario.
You want to have a massive cap fight - go for it. But please let us know before it happens, and don't do it every freaking day because it really is boring now.
11 caps is too much against the regulars of Gamma - too boring?
But half a dozen caps every day in Sigma-13 against the handful of GMG/BH isnt?
I am sorry but I have little sympathy for the Corsairs. If the Hunters weren't talking, weren't attempting to roleplay, then punish them. Other than that - who the hell are the Corsairs to complain that they are being invaded?
You know it would be really nice to fly a fighter instead of a bomber in the Sigmas (and hats off to the Outcasts who actually know how to field small craft!).
To my mind, the biggest problem is not that the Hunters are attacking en masse - but that the Corsairs havent put pressure on the Zoners to kick the Hunters off the freeports for these constant attacks (are they not staged from Freeports?)
It seems to me to be a good excuse for diplomatic haggling - not admin intervention.