Actually, Corsair-Zoner relations are not as simple as "Neutral", "semi-allied", "semi-hostile" or w/e. Zoners have no centralised diplomacy.
True, Corsairs look upon Freeport 9 with greed, due to the biodomes that they would love to claim, and on Freeport 5 with annoyance as it is used by Bounty Hunters.
But they also live on Gran Canaria. Freeport 11 is a useful base out in Delta, and I'm sure they appreciate the efforts of hired guns operating out of Freeport 10.
Zoner neutrality is not maintained by "keep away or die" capfleets, but by the fact that Zoners offer services that are necessary to the survival...of everyone.
You don't see Hunters taking a hostile attitude towards Zoners just because they supply the Corsairs with food, and you don't see Corsairs taking a hostile stance because they grant docking rights to those same Hunters.
As for Zoners pulling together to form a "house"...that is the very thing that would not happen. They are an eclectic mix of individuals who chose to live by themselves with no higher authority. "Zoner" is really more of a tag for "I don't want to join a faction" than an "organization" in it's own right.
I have no doubt the Corsairs would love to see the Zoners removed or crippled--just as the Soviet Union would have liked to see that happen to the US in the Cold War. The trick is doing it so you don't bring down your own house as well or expose it to greater weakness or threat. I would think working with Harvesters a distinct possibility--until they realized the machine grease and brains in them came in part from Corsairs. So imagine the hungry people of Crete finding that their "benevolent" war lords have just made a deal with machines that "eat people".
These are the sort of things that would have to be considered--as well as how would the Order respond?
Agreed regarding the above but the Corsairs aren't Zoners. They are much more desirous of power and wealth than "working with". It is the best option they have at present and they need it. Needing food is a powerful incentive to "stay in line".
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' Wrote:Actually, Corsair-Zoner relations are not as simple as "Neutral", "semi-allied", "semi-hostile" or w/e. Zoners have no centralised diplomacy.
True, Corsairs look upon Freeport 9 with greed, due to the biodomes that they would love to claim, and on Freeport 5 with annoyance as it is used by Bounty Hunters.
But they also live on Gran Canaria. Freeport 11 is a useful base out in Delta, and I'm sure they appreciate the efforts of hired guns operating out of Freeport 10.
Zoner neutrality is not maintained by "keep away or die" capfleets, but by the fact that Zoners offer services that are necessary to the survival...of everyone.
You don't see Hunters taking a hostile attitude towards Zoners just because they supply the Corsairs with food, and you don't see Corsairs taking a hostile stance because they grant docking rights to those same Hunters.
As for Zoners pulling together to form a "house"...that is the very thing that would not happen. They are an eclectic mix of individuals who chose to live by themselves with no higher authority. "Zoner" is really more of a tag for "I don't want to join a faction" than an "organization" in it's own right.
You don't address the issue of a common cause created by hostilities from Harvesters.
I'll use an example from media events from the last couple decades; Jihad. The various forms of Islam (Shiite, Sunni, etc.) do not recognize other factions as the true religion as passed down by Muhammad and yet individuals from each version of Islam join forces under the flags of Bin Laden or other terrorist leaders to carry out Jihad for what they perceive as their fight for survival. Survival and dominance of their beliefs, yes, but still they band together to fight what they perceive as a common threat.
As more and more Zoners are killed by Harvesters who are openly hostile to Zoners, so would they band together for mutual survival against a common threat. Zoner navies would develop and, as each recognizes they can not stand alone as effectively as together, they would join forces into a larger Zoner Navy. They would eventually become more and more organized to combat their common threat.
I'm not arguing that Zoners should be a house right now. I'm pointing out that, as events unfold in the future, it would become inevitable. This, alone, is why giving them a common enemy is unwise. Zoners are rich and powerful enough as a loose band of people to ensure neutrality with lawful and unlawful alike. Imagine the force they would become if they were motivated into banding together into a formidable house.
A common enemy, a common threat; that would be motivation.
And Jubal Early, very good point about Corsairs and their food supply. A good deal of it comes from Zoners. Would they really wish to threaten their major source of food?
Not to mention 'seizing the freeports' would require that the freeports seized (A) would not blow their farms rather than surrender them - unlikely and (B) can feed the entire corsair nation - unlikely. The Zoners not only grow food, they trade food, pharmaceuticals, light arms, industrial goods, basically everything the Corsairs don't make themselves, and in far greater quantities than can be pirated. In my eyes, THAT is the major hold the Zoners have on the Corsairs and Outcasts alike. Deal with us, or starve and see your industry grind to a halt.
[edit - spelling ffs]
[edit again:]
This 'merchant power' requires little coordination, as well. If a faction starts shooting Zoners, the other Zoners will simply go somewhere else as the word gets out, and arm themselves when in the ZOI of the offending faction. Not because of Zoner decree, but because each individual Zoner wishes to live.
John Johnson - Master of Synth.Foods-Convoy|049
Hans Adler - Synth Foods escort wing
' Wrote:This makes OPG's position a dangerous one.
Which is what makes OPG so fun to be in;)
OPG-Harvester relations are somewhat like the Outcast-Nomad relations.
We're friendly/allied, but it ain't public knowledge to eg. the Zoners or CR.
I didn't mean for this to turn into a faction discussion, I meant it to be a debate on the Harvester vs. Zoner war in the next release of this mod. I presented, what I think to be, logical reasons why I believe this is a bad idea.
By moving this to the Faction discussion thread, are we saying that the war is to be and has no option for debate? I'd prefer an honest debate on the issue of the war but if this is, in fact, the case then the creation of these factions should be discussed.
The powers that be should consider some of the reactions in this thread that is less than 12 hours old at this point. Not nearly all responses were in favor of this proposed war and most of the ones that were for it didn't present any logic to support their opinion.
' Wrote:Which is what makes OPG so fun to be in;)
OPG-Harvester relations are somewhat like the Outcast-Nomad relations.
We're friendly/allied, but it ain't public knowledge to eg. the Zoners or CR.
Exactly. And that's the reason Harvesters wont bother to negotiate. OPG is safe from suspicion.
And we will grind any zoner ship in 4.85 to get the Alpha code and set FTGW free.
Harvester motives are simple: learn - grow - evolve or be recycled.
It has taken a massive amount of in-game RP so that the Harvesters would become like this.
But why am i saying this. I'm sure everyone raising a word against OPG and Harvester
"Alliance" has already read our faction history. And i have a simple answer:
Harvesters have a set goal. They don't care if Zoners will lose some friends, they betrayed
FTGW's trust and will therefore need to face the consequences.
//please mind that this is simply a game, and we are trying to portray a
very disturbing position for the "ever-peaceful" Zoner faction.
You might have noticed the number of active wars in 4.85 has risen drastically,
and were all here to play our role.
Now, i don't want my post to be misinterpreted. You are all free to discuss it but SOME things
have already been set in motion and it would be clumsy to erase them as mistakes.
Lots of people had a good time in game roleplaying that, many wrote story entries about it.
On topic: Every corsair faction should know that harvesters are indeed willing to assist them in purging
their common enemies. The harvesters will view each corsair as "friendly" until they do them harm
and put themselves on our blacklist.
So yes, either Admins will set common relations with Harvesters or individual Players&Factions will do it
simply by making choices in-game.
The Zoners and the Harvesters may go to war in any release of the mod. Their Junker affiliation allows it and their shaky association with the OPG doesn't dissuade it. The Harvesters are technically a unique faction, though they've chosen to adopt the Junker ID, it's their prerogative if they wish to engage hostilities with the Zoners so long as they mind server rules in that pursuit.
What the Corsairs, in turn, do about the OPG's reckless affiliations is their own concern, one for which they may have to answer if they find themselves granting aid to one of the enemies of humanity.
I believe this is called RP and the development of a storyline by some people.
' Wrote:Snip......
As for Zoners pulling together to form a "house"...that is the very thing that would not happen. They are an eclectic mix of individuals who chose to live by themselves with no higher authority. "Zoner" is really more of a tag for "I don't want to join a faction" than an "organization" in it's own right.
There is a quote;
"Learn from history or be doomed to repeat its mistakes."
Think back to the 1600's-1800's a little place called the Barbary Coast. A place of Pirates and scally-wags. All out for their own gain. Attacked by an orginized government, banneded together as a semi-orginized force to defend their lands.
Go ahead push Zoner's.
Don't complain when they decide to puch back, HARD!