' Wrote:Well I have to agree with this, a vindication policy isnt really how the Zoners operate.
Agreed, zoners are not factional by nature but free and independant spirits who left the core systems to get away from factionalism and hierarchies, they are the least likely to band together into a group with formal command and control structures.
The military side bothers me as well, my zoner trader has spent a long time building up a working relationship with various pirate groups on my trade route, the last thing I want is a bunch of fighters storming in to "clear a path" setting my diplomacy back to square one and putting me on the top of the OPG's Kill on Sight list.
It says in your proposal that the military wing must have zoner guard tag and be neutral to every faction including all guard factions, I thought this was next to impossible to achieve and anyway why would it be necessary for the guards to enter systems that the traders couldn't?
The proposal looks very good, but I can't help thinking this is the type of proposal that should be for some house corp, not the Zoners. Why is it that 2 out of 3 official and unofficial trading factions are Zoner? Do you really want to be neutral to everyone so much? Come on this would be a great proposal for a Universal faction, or a Dauman or Kishiro. The reason I ask is there does not seem to much difference between this faction proposal and any other proposal for any trading faction, there doesn't seem to be anything that singles you all out as Zoners. Look at some of the other Zoner factions out there, they all have a bit of weirdness to them, probably because they spend so much time on the outskirts of the sector, outside of the houses. What is weird about you all? You seem way to Corporate to be a Zoner faction.
1. Vindication policies are not the way Zoners have ever operated
2. A full integrated military lead by an "Admiralty" is not the way trading factions operate (escort wing yes, but not an active military with an Admiralty Board)
3. Your faction proposal would be far better suited if you were affiliated with a House Corporation, e.g. Universal, rather than the already over-used and abused Zoners.
That said, the proposal is by and large sensible and well written; I just feel that if the above points were addressed (or at least satisfactorily explained) then it would be an altogether much more solid looking proposal.
Just renaming your "Admirals" to "Security Wing Commanders" and changing some of the wording would make a big difference in my eyes.
this is to inform that the faction proposal will be published in the text form until tomorrow 4pm (and probably during this night), as requested by the forum administrators. In a few minutes I will start answering the first wave of comments.
Yours sincelery
dr Werner Mazursky
CEO, board member
Zoners Trading Consortium Ltd.
Thank you for your interest and for your comments. On behalf of the Board of Directors I will have the pleasure to answer them now. I apologize for not being able to give binding answers to all of them, since we are yet before the board meeting where we have to discuss some issues more deeply. In such cases I promise to get back to the questions afterwards.
' Wrote:1. Have you paid the 500mil fee to an admin, or did I miss it?
[font=Palatino Linotype]Yes sir, it was our CFO, John Chrichton who issued the transfer. If needed we are able to provide copy of the receipt.
' Wrote:2. Not sure you need the military apparatus you propose. This is a consortium (really more like a corporation - a "consortium" is actually an association of otherwise independent organizations); it is not a nation, and as such does not need a "military," a "fleet," or "admirals." You are neither defending territory nor projecting power. What it does need is a security department with management, given the tasks you lay out for it. So a director over the department, with a wing or two (and these can have "commanders" or something a bit more modestly exciting). I know it's fun to play military, but for a trading faction, it seems rather over the top.
[font=Palatino Linotype]As to the consortium/corporation naming: in fact, in the initial stage of establishing our organization, it was formed as a consortium of several smaller trading companies (Mazursky Transports among them) and civil law partnerships, which initially were planned to act more independent. Then the bindings have been tightened, we decided to join our forces and act under a single brand. But the name remained. I understand that it would be appropriate to consider some adjustment of the naming to the facts of the case, it will be discussed on the board meeting.
As to the naming convention for our Security Department, I can say that after some quick consultations with my partners I may say that we will very seriously consider applying your suggestions to maintain some proportions between the rank names and the real purposes of them.
However, at this point I would like to defend to some extent the weight we put to the scale of the military equipment in our company. Please take into account that Zoners usually do their businesses in the dangerous systems, where they can count on themselves - their diplomatic skills and their guns. We do not intend to use the military fleet unless really forced to do it, and our plan (sofar realized with full success) is to solve the taxing/piracy problems with help of agreements and goods exchange.
But it may always happen that we will have to protect our convoys, even for some bigger threats than just small time ruffians where a wing or two would not be enough. Therefore we plan to invest some proportoin of our profits in the maintenance of a well equipped and efficiently functioning security fleet. "Trading faction" doesn't need to mean "defenceless faction".
We don't treat military ships as toys, we rather grew out of this stage. It is rather a sad necessity for us.
' Wrote:A very well produced proposal. I think it may be something that my Zoner captain Georg Thorfinnssen of the SS.'Miskatonic' would like to be a part of. I am in complete agreement with your economic aims.
[font=Palatino Linotype]Thank you for a good word sir, we do our best. We would be honoured if you would like to contact one of our chief officers regarding any kind of cooperation.
' Wrote:It is Gran Canaria though
It is your homebase, you should know what it's called:P
[font=Palatino Linotype]You got us sir, point taken. Let me just mention that as we re-base our company, our secretariat is completelly infunctional for the time being. Imagine I write this letter manually by myself, no dictating!
' Wrote:Proposal seems good enough.
However, I've seen you guys go OOC in system chat on several occasions, and I'd expect you not to if you want to be a proper registered PC faction.
[font=Palatino Linotype]As we have performed some internal investigation, I have been informed that this case has been clarified. In the future, please let us know if you observe any cases of the improper behaviour of any tagged Consortium pilot. We cannot accept such situations and will react accordingly.
' Wrote:Faction proposal? Where is it? I can't see anything.
*fumbles blindly in thread*
PDF file? Post it here please. I have personal issues with Adobe. Actually, it's one of the guys who works there. Well, okay, I don't like a photocopier that works there.
Order capital ships...for a trading wing of the Zoners...that has a Vindication policy - i.e. tax us and we get you. <strike>So Zoner traders will no longer be pirated...</strike>
I see.....the suns darkened by the Osiris fleet......angry zoners meting out justice for pirates attempting to make a living...... I see....(look of horror on face)....people becoming zoners to avoid getting taxed?!?!?!?!
[font=Palatino Linotype]Sir, let me just express my admiration to your ability of concluding from the posts. You have guessed almost everything! :-)
But seriously: we have to differentiate between what we call taxing and piracy. If we speak of the honest people really attempting to make living, there is a wide range of agreements we are open for. Beginning with the humanitarian missions in exchange for the neutrality guarantee, through framework agreements as to the escorting/supporting services, finishing with the more civilized non-agression contracts. To the honest people we present an offer much wider than just our guns.
The Security Department is dedicated mainly to handle the individuals whose diplomacy is reduced to the golden sentence "2mil or die sir". This is where we refuse to play a role of an easy victim, and this is where we say indeed: destroy one of our ships, terrorize our pilots, and we will get you.
' Wrote:Well I have to agree with this, a vindication policy isnt really how the Zoners operate.
[font=Palatino Linotype]As said in my previous answer, we very hope not to be forced to use this policy very much, and we are pretty certain this will not be necessary at all in most of the cases where we meet civilized pilots. But please, understand us - we do have to protect our profit for which we all work very hard, and we have to possess some instruments to discourage the ordinary bandits to treat us as a bunch of helpless cash cows. This is one of them.
' Wrote:Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but The Phantoms seem to take a more or less neutral stance towards the Zoners, so there shouldnt be any need to be hostile to them
[font=Palatino Linotype]If this is a mistake (or outdated information) of our intelligence team, it will be corrected immediatelly. This will be the subject of the nearest board meeting.
' Wrote:And one more thing, it would be nice if you introduced yourselves here
[font=Palatino Linotype]We will be honoured and will do it asap. This was actually the very next point of our plan, just after introducing ourselves to the wide community. We count very much on the information exchange and cooperation with the Council.
' Wrote:You mention Zoner since the beginning of Sirius, but aren't they a recent movement as per rumors and infocards? Along the same lines, if it's a group of people who are leaving the organized Houses, would they organize themselves into a company? Maybe it's just a minor point, but it seems more logical to think of them as trade unions or something of the sort, in my view.
[font=Palatino Linotype]I will try to justify our approach in twofold way. First, let me mention that all the commercial undertakings (wether house based or another), are subject to some universal economy laws, like the economy of scale. It means that in order to compete on the requiring market, you have to integrate in some bigger commercial organism in order to maintain a similar profit margin, and as a consequence - to survive as a company. This was our vision while forming the Consortium. Second, I would say that in the Zoners community, like in others, you may meet some proportion of people of the more "corporate" mentality. Agreed - you can expect less of us among the Zoners than e.g. in NewYork - but there are several of us and we don't necessary feel representants of the whole community.
' Wrote:Lastly, given the naming scheme and all, is the Zoners Trading Consortium, Ltd. registered in some particular House, or perhaps all of them? The name is implying government regulation to me.
[font=Palatino Linotype]*uncertain* Well, according to my knowledge, the company was registered on Gran Canaria, in the Court Register which is located there... at least so I have been informed by our Legal Department... Please let me talk to our lawyers, we will clarify this.
' Wrote:Ship use wise, isn't there going to be a Zoner transport restriction? So wouldn't you need Zoner Guard to use the Whale? Alternately, is that just for the time being with different future plans? You may also want to be more specific with the equipment usage - while GMG/Order ships may fit ally-wise, if you're going to be trading through certain places it could produce a problem. For instance, Order ships or weapons in Liberty seems like a potential for problems.
[font=Palatino Linotype]As to the traders, we have taken the assumption that the joining pilots have to gain the reputation of the Zoner Guards in order become the Consortium members. And to become a trading pilot (with a second character), one should have to be already a member of the security department.
As to the equipment - suggestions noted. We will take it into account while proposing some more specific equipment standards.
' Wrote:Agreed, zoners are not factional by nature but free and independant spirits who left the core systems to get away from factionalism and hierarchies, they are the least likely to band together into a group with formal command and control structures.
[font=Palatino Linotype]This approach I tried to justify in my answer to a similar question at the end of my previous post. I hope you find the arguments reasonable.
' Wrote:The military side bothers me as well, my zoner trader has spent a long time building up a working relationship with various pirate groups on my trade route, the last thing I want is a bunch of fighters storming in to "clear a path" setting my diplomacy back to square one and putting me on the top of the OPG's Kill on Sight list.
[font=Palatino Linotype]A very good point sir. In fact, working out positive relationships with all the factions presents for us the highest priority. However our company is relatively young, we already managed to perform a humanitarian run to one of the planets inhabited by the unlawful faction (planning next ones). We managed to form positive relations with several unlawful factions, rooted in the Omegas as in Taus.
We have not started a single fight with anyone, although we have been pirated several times. We did perform two vindication missions. Both of them were finalized successfully, in a diplomatic way, without a single shot.
Force and the bounty putting instrumentary we treat as an ultimate solution, which we allow us to use only in extreme circumstances. Furthermore, such undertakings will be always analysed from the point of view of the Zoners as a whole. We feel responsible for the entire community and we are aware that we may influence it's overall image.
' Wrote:It says in your proposal that the military wing must have zoner guard tag and be neutral to every faction including all guard factions, I thought this was next to impossible to achieve and anyway why would it be necessary for the guards to enter systems that the traders couldn't?
[font=Palatino Linotype]Indeet it is very hard to achieve, however we require it quite strictly from our recruits. There are two reasons: the first reason is to filter out impatient, hot blooded pilots, who may present some risk of the roleplay decrease or provoking conflicts under our brand. We assume that having achieved that level of reputation, you praise your character very high and act more reasonably.
Second reason is more of a symbolic nature. Neutrality is for us not just another catchy slogan or a way to non-problematic trading. We really believe in the possibility of peaceful coexistence of all the nations thorough Sirius, and we would like to send some signal to the wide public: if we say we are neutral, you can rely on our word, since we are ready to do very much to achieve and keep the neutral relations with everyone.
' Wrote:The proposal looks very good, but I can't help thinking this is the type of proposal that should be for some house corp, not the Zoners. Why is it that 2 out of 3 official and unofficial trading factions are Zoner? Do you really want to be neutral to everyone so much? Come on this would be a great proposal for a Universal faction, or a Dauman or Kishiro. The reason I ask is there does not seem to much difference between this faction proposal and any other proposal for any trading faction, there doesn't seem to be anything that singles you all out as Zoners. Look at some of the other Zoner factions out there, they all have a bit of weirdness to them, probably because they spend so much time on the outskirts of the sector, outside of the houses. What is weird about you all? You seem way to Corporate to be a Zoner faction.
[font=Palatino Linotype]Well sir, I don't even dare to deny it. Yes, we are corporate and mercantile to the bone. It may happen that in our corporate design we may be similar to some other factions. Well, it's hard to avoid in such crowded system.
But as I tried to justify it in my previous answers: even the Zoners are subjects to the universal economy laws which sometimes force us to shape our commercial undertakings in some standardized, efficiency-driven form. Maybe it's the global economy whom we could blame?
Furthermore, in my opinion there is no real conflict between the mercantile mentality and between sharing the values of independence, freedom and tolerance. Yes, we are very devoted to keep neutral and peaceful relations with everyone who gives us a chance to it - this is the main justification for our very high reputation requirements.
Yet furthermore, as said before, we don't expect to be treated as typical Zoner representatives, since we are aware of the fact that most of our brothers are rather not extremely bound to hierarchy and structure. But again - we, as a couple of businesmen, felt like organizing ourselves in a more organized body. I hope there is a place for people like us in this most tolerant faction of Sirius.
' Wrote:I agree with three points already raised here:
1. Vindication policies are not the way Zoners have ever operated
2. A full integrated military lead by an "Admiralty" is not the way trading factions operate (escort wing yes, but not an active military with an Admiralty Board)
3. Your faction proposal would be far better suited if you were affiliated with a House Corporation, e.g. Universal, rather than the already over-used and abused Zoners.
That said, the proposal is by and large sensible and well written; I just feel that if the above points were addressed (or at least satisfactorily explained) then it would be an altogether much more solid looking proposal.
Just renaming your "Admirals" to "Security Wing Commanders" and changing some of the wording would make a big difference in my eyes.
[font=Palatino Linotype]To answer according to your points:
1. As said before, it shall be treated as an ultimate solution, we hope not to be forced to do this. Sofar two vindication missions were completed successfully without giving a single shot. And we don't want to change this statistics.
2. Yes, most probably this will be a subject to some changes during the nearest board meeting, thank you for emphasizing.
3. Values shared by the Zoners are not just empty words for us. We really implement them in our everyday activity, not just talk about them. We begin with ourselves, putting strict requirements as to our reputation; we do not engage in any military undertakings unless forced to or asked by our allies; we never bring/smuggle goods which are not welcome by any local faction; we do humanitarian runs. And we treat all the people of Sirius as equal.
The house systems with their military conflicts, taging people as lawful or not, are not the right place for people like us. And this cannot be changed only by the fact that we strive for the maximized profit in a most efficient, corporate manner.
A couple of more points from me. First, the whole have to be neutral to all guard factions I think will really be a problem for some people. I would not want your people in the AFA or Corsair guard system, I would shoot them on sight if they were found there, the fact that you want all of your recruits to set up their ship so they can go into any guard system means to me that you intend for your ships to go into those guard systems, if even to check their neutrality. That is unacceptable to me personally as I am sure it would be to other faction leaders. Guard systems are highly restricted areas, not to be entered by neutral factions, the fact that you require your recruits to go into these systems is a major problem for me.
Lastly I still think this would be a better proposal coming from a faction like Universal than another Zoner trading company, just more like the house corporations.
It's funny, I must be like a psychic or something. Here I was not 2 days ago talking about how your whole neutral to all guards is going to be a problem and what to do I find when I log on tonight? A (]C[) (God that is a really really annoying tag to have to type) in the Corsair guard systems. What was he doing there? Well as he put it to me, "Wreck Hunting." Now, would be fairly upsetting to me if what your men were really using that rep you make get for is to "Wreck Hunt" in peoples guard systems. When I demanded he leave, I was told "You don't trust Zoners" and "We bring you food to feed your children" the implication being that you folks can do what you want and go where you want because you bring food to Crete. Well this is unacceptable. I have Screens, but wont put them up here, but if the leadership of (]C[) (annoying) wishes to see them, pm me. I would hope to get some response from you people.
As a prospective member of the ([c]) I have to say I am also concerned by the attitude towards guard systems shown. I am a firm believer that one should get permission to enter any guard system that is not affilliated with your character, and even then its better to have a bloody good reason to go there.
There are certain guard systems that can provide invaluable shortcuts to traders and smugglers, and whilst I have used them sometimes, I find it's always prudent to spend as little time as possible in such sytems, so no loitering, docking or code-hunting. In all cases its good to get permission from an associated player if one can be found.
If the reason you require neutrality with guard factions is to expedite trading then I suggest you begin earnest negotiations with the respective player factions and try to draw up some agreement with them regarding passage through these systems. I would also suggest any agreements be made public so as to avoid any confusion from any non-faction players.
As you are primarily a trading faction I'm sure such an arrangement could be made based on financial incentives, but I would also suggest that you draft a strict and enforceable code of conduct for your ([c]) members to ensure respect and proper behaviour when in such guard systems (and in others too!)