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' Wrote:This rule is specific only to 2 or more ships in "PVP combat" and one engages cruise to escape. This rule states the one who engages cruise is escaping and thus cannot re-engage. But it says nothing about limiting the pursuers cruising.
I'm not certain that you are expressing yourself completely, or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but what you said is not technically accurate.
The "escaping player" is defined by whichever one is the first to engage cruise engines. That is a label that can switch back and forth during a fight. For instance :
1. Bloodhound engages cruise to escape Piranha. This ends the Bloodhounds ability to fight in the engagement.
2. Piranha engages cruise to pursue. At a distance of 3k, Piranha engine kills and CD's Bloodhound out of cruise. At this point the engagement begins all over again, because the Bloodhound is now allowed to continue fighting because Piranha pursued.
3. Piranha engages cruise engines to catch up to Bloodhound who is now using thrusters. At this point, according to the rule as stated, the Piranha has become the fleeing player because he has engaged cruise engines while the Bloodhound is under normal engine power. If Piranha now attacks Bloodhound he is in violation of rule 5.6.
Pursuer and escaper is NOT defined by whichever player wants to escape. It is defined according to who uses cruise engines while the other ship is under normal power.
That is what the rules state. Whether this is the intended meaning or not, I have no clue.
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' Wrote:why do you have to kill them to make your point. We need to delineate between PVP and RP a bit better. Unless you're a terrorist or someone collecting a bounty ... there's really no RP reason to chase down and kill someone to add to your trophy wall.
I disagree here, In an RP sense, if you are my enemy, I am trying to kill you for a reason, the most basic of which is to deny my enemy one of their ships and pilots. If you are an outcast or a bounty hunter or Britonian or Rheinldander, then yes, I dotn want to let you get away, because every ship I destroy or pilot I kill is one less they have to bring against my corsairs.(In an RP sense of course)
' Wrote:I'm not certain that you are expressing yourself completely, or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but what you said is not technically accurate.
The "escaping player" is defined by whichever one is the first to engage cruise engines. That is a label that can switch back and forth during a fight. For instance :
1. Bloodhound engages cruise to escape Piranha. This ends the Bloodhounds ability to fight in the engagement.
2. Piranha engages cruise to pursue. At a distance of 3k, Piranha engine kills and CD's Bloodhound out of cruise. At this point the engagement begins all over again, because the Bloodhound is now allowed to continue fighting because Piranha pursued.
3. Piranha engages cruise engines to catch up to Bloodhound who is now using thrusters. At this point, according to the rule as stated, the Piranha has become the fleeing player because he has engaged cruise engines while the Bloodhound is under normal engine power. If Piranha now attacks Bloodhound he is in violation of rule 5.6.
Pursuer and escaper is NOT defined by whichever player wants to escape. It is defined according to who uses cruise engines while the other ship is under normal power.
That is what the rules state. Whether this is the intended meaning or not, I have no clue.
Xoria: Your points 1 and 2 are just restating what I said in different words. In point 3 ... he's still in pursuit. But like I said ... there's no rule that specifies at what distance from your enemy you can no longer use cruise. In fact the cruise in combat rule is not literally written anywhere. I've gotta assume its more tradition than something codified.
EDIT: If cruise is used to get farther away from the fight ... he's attempting to escape. If cruise is used to get closer ... maybe he's in pursuit.
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Zelot: You don't have to "kill" someone (enemy or not) who is not threatening you or your system. You can always "chase them away." Same effect ... they gotta avoid you for 4 hours and not re-enter the system they ran away from you in. From an RP standpoint (and RL for that matter) enemy ships pass by each other routinely without opening fire (especially in open / international waters). There's no rule that says you "have to engage your enemy." We are not NPCs ... try to remember that. If I'm a Rheinland Police flying around New Berlin, I'm not gonna look at long range scanners and say, "hey ... there's a Corsair way out there in Omicron Gamma ... I must kill him." Now if that Corsair was flying in New Berlin or attacking Rheinlanders, yes you might have a point. If that Corsair is hanging out in Sigma 13 ... am I "required" to fly there to kill him? Why can't I just chase him away from the jumphole that leads to New Berlin? Conflict is not always about attrition. Its about getting the enemy to do what you want them to do ... to leave the area or cease being a potential threat.
RP between enemies is more than just a PVP event. You can simply say ask them to leave (provided you have ZOI for the system or area). And then there are those that are neutrals ... what of them?
here are is an example about uneven situations that can - by the rule... result in a lockout for 4 hours.
a LPI patriot spots a zoner destroyer. the zoner destroyer has 20 BHGs and 10 nomad samples in his hold. the place is new york. now - the patriot will order the zoner destroyer to cut his engines and drop the nomads so they can be burned. furthermore, he orders the zoner to release the BHGs at a nearby police base.
it happens that the zoner refuses to do so. - now, the LPI is all alone, no LSF and no NAVY close by. - to underline that he means business, the patriot shoots the destroyer with a few delibitator shots. by no means the patriot can even make the shieldbar move.
now, do we have a combat engagement? - if so.. the first to move out of the combat area must leave new york for 4 hours. - silly? yes. but if someone insisted on such a stupid thing - the other person would really have to go. - so, with that in mind, should the patriot, after unsuccessfully trying to enforce liberty law leave new york for 4 hours? - i dont think so... that would be an exception for sure.
now - lets say, the zoner destroyer feels all annoyed by the patriot that babbles to him endlessly and pokes him with his puny weapons. he cruises away or takes the next lane ( taking lane = retreat also ) - has the zoner destroyer got to leave new york for 4 hours now? - what a stupid thing to do....
so - it boils down to - when has a real engagement happened? - we cannot apply the self defense rules ( that means that both opponents much shoot at each other with the intention to kill and its considered a real engagement once someones shields are 50% drained ) - in terms of capital ships - that would mean, that its not an engagement unless 50% of the caps shields are drained...
this is no loopholing, it is to make you aware of how to define an engagement. - now the positive thing is, that like 99.9% of all cases, it is very clear. but it became a nasty habit of players to abuse the retreat rule to get rid of an opponent.
Personally, I go by the line that states your only engaged in PvP once you've dropped their shield (or had your own dropped) by half or more.
Or if they declare that their going to attack me.
That way...
1) your not fleeing if your shield is still over half.
2) you haven't technically been engaged.
3) cuts down on 'grey-areas' (real or not).
4) gives people a chance to test whether they can actually do any damage before committing (obviously if you can't then you can both go about your business and ignore the other).
Thats just how I view it.
Obviously some don't, up to them.
But if I ask you to stop firing then I fully expect you to do so, just as I will be fully prepared to stop firing if someone asks me to.
But do note that if you scream at me to stop shooting after a missile salvo is launched that theres nothing I can do to stop em hitting you:)
Note: As to the why kill em if their running... as a new phantom I need to gather as many trophys as possible to compete with the extensive collection built up by the others:)(yeah, Shadow has an inferiority complex)
Though, it depends on the cirumstances.
e.g If someone shoots at me, then runs and expects me to let them go, they're in for a nasty surprise (as Victory found out).
If however they have an agreement with a pirate group my char respectskes/owes then I'll take that into consideration, again ask Victory (my phantom char does have a sense of honour and fair-play, just because it's different to other peoples doesn't mean it doesn't exist).
However, you insult me IC or OOC and I will not rest until I have found and pounded your ship (plus anything it drops) into scrap. My phantom char has a vindictive streak too;)
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' Wrote:In fact the cruise in combat rule is not literally written anywhere. I've gotta assume its more tradition than something codified.
EDIT: If cruise is used to get farther away from the fight ... he's attempting to escape. If cruise is used to get closer ... maybe he's in pursuit.
5.6 If a player engages cruise engine or docks during a PvP fight, this player is considered fleeing. That is the "cruise in combat rule".
Escape and pursuit is NOT defined by intention. Rule 5.6 defines it by which ship engages cruise engines while the other is under normal power. What the ship intends to use the cruise engines for is irrelevant according to the rule.
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Yes, I'm gravedigging. I've been on vacation and going through some threads....
I was accused of using cruise to catch up to a battle. The guy was thrusting away from the Westphalia and taking the bomber with him. Technically, he was running away from my battleship. They were 3 or 4 k away from me...was I just supposed to drift toward them in hopes that my bomber pilot wasn't dead by the time I got there? No! I fired the cruise engines to pursue the pirate. I wasn't fleeing. Why would I leave a fight I was winning?
The rule needs to be clarified. Hitting cruise to pursue ....there's nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I'll put it to the rest of the admins.