Do not Increase weapon speed it will just make fighters nastier to even other fighters. What we need is people to stop using all VHF's. I rape Bombers in my Liberator. Try to use light fighters people. You get on a bombers tail with one,and guess what? you stay there.If it ignores you? you can pound on it non stop till it go's boom,as it cannot shake you. To slow to out turn you,and it will never hit you unless your dumb enough to try and joust with it. That brings up another little tidbit i would like to point out here. Get rid of engine kill for all fighters,bombers,and believe me alot will change,and equal out,but nahhh that will never happen as the higher ups all joust to,and love it.
The Problem that Fighters take ages to kill evading Bombers is showed.
Then you are showing us a Video about a Battleship shooting Fighter Swarms in 200-600 Range with 2400m/s weapons which basically reduces the time untill the Projectile hits from less than a tenth of a second to a maximum of a quarter of a second, telling to learn how to aim.
In addition you yourself say that it has nothing to do about Fighters fighting Bombers.
So the problem still exists. Fighters that should be able to take on Bombers still take ages to take down Bombers.
You showed that
' Wrote:bombers have a hard enough time as it is now.
- versus Battleships.
So now imagine you got 3 Fighters protecting a Border Worlds Transport, facing a single Bomber.
Or make it 10 fighters versus 2 Bombers.
In both cases the Bomber(s) is(are) still able to pirate the Transport simply by telling "i'm going to take that Transport down, before you take me(us) down".
And if anyone now is trying to tell "send scouts first" - that first only works properly on Tradelanes and in addition that doesn't solve the problem, since still the Bombers would be able to take out the Transport or - if they are intercepted first - would either force the transport to delay his journey for the whole long long time the battle will go on - or the Transport will have to commence the journey without Escords, since they are bound in battle for a long time.
Regards,
Talesin
Edit:
and to ryoken
- Yes, you will be able to hit Bombers better with a Light fighter.
But the Problem still exists. Mosts Light Fighters got 4x class 8 or 2x class 8, 2x class 9 weaponry, those don't deal a sufficient ammount of damage, exspecially since most of the times, two of those slots will be used by Debilators.
Mind - Bombers got a huge ammount of Bots and Bats.
Increasing weapons speed will shorten Fighter vs Fighter fights - well they are lasting a long long long time at the moment actually.
- To be honest -
Mostly these Fights are suddenly ended by a Nuclear mine or a Razor shot. To take one out with mere weapons will take ages and ages and ages since an experienced enemy would just increase evading everytime the shield gets down and you still have to tear all his Bots 'n Bats apart.
' Wrote:Better yet, give fighters beam weapons that can hit bombers instantly and see if anyone still rant/whine about their fighters not killing bombers fast enough.
Sarcasm aside, yes I actually support this proposal. I believe turning the projectile speeds up for low refire weapons (2.0, 3.03)s would attract more fighter pilots to use the high damage, miss and die weapons.
Beam weaps were available in the evolutions and nomad revenge mods which were the most popular ones some years ago. There are still a lot of old veterans around.
The current weapon balancing is the result of MANY years tuning.
Please just go away with such a proposal just because you can't hit anything.
Yes - small vs. small fights take much longer than big vs. big fights - and infinitely longer than small vs. big fights.
Changing hull or damage output of any ship will affect the balance between caps and snubcraft. Changing projectile speed wont affect this as DPS is not affected.
As I understand it - the biggest barrier to increasing fighter projectile speed is the impact on VHFs vs smaller HFs and LFs. This was an issue highlighted by the devs in the last major thread about this issue.
Increasing projectile speed of fighter guns too much will start to unduly impact on the defensive agility of LFs and HFs against VHFs.
That being said - I believe that two options could compensate for this - allowing projectile speeds to go up:
1) Compensate LFs and HFs with better strafe capability. Faster strafe response time and speed would allow these lighter craft to evade fire from the rear and front. It would also allow them to execute tighter turns (though tighter turns leave a ship vulnerable to tracking mines!).
2) Use gun classes to assign the weapons. We already have this in a limited form. Class 10 is for the slower codies. Class 9 is for the faction guns (which at the moment are highly variable in speed and other properties).
Perhaps Class 8, or lower, guns - with their naturally lower DPS output would be suited for higher projectile speeds. Such lower DPS guns could then be dedicated 'anti-aircraft' guns. Hell - you could create an entirely new set of gunlines using the underused classes 1-7, without affecting any of the current weapons. You could also increase the speed of lower level missiles - as again these weapons have a naturally lower DPS.
Just as any fighter can now choose between an assault loadout with a MR, or an intercept loadout with a CD - a fighter could then choose whether to go with faster, lower damage AA guns, or slower, harder hitting guns better suited to larger, slower targets.
Sure they could go with a mixed loadout - it all depends on one's personal fighting style. but regardless of fighting style - it is certainly clear that fighter fights take a disproportionate amount of game time to complete when compared to cap fights. Achieving a closer parity (though perhaps impossible to achieve full parity) is a worthy goal.
So here is a challenge: give it a try?
Take some existing level 7 guns, and up their speed to something like a gunboat defense turret - say 1400m/s. The guns have a good chance to hit, and hit often. But they do less damage per hit, and drain less energy.
I predict you will have a good pursuit weapon that can fire fast, fire continuously and hit often enough to wear down an enemy. But you wont have an effective jousting weapon as it simply wont do the damage fast enough on a quick pass. This can clearly differentiate the two types of weapon.
If anyone is interested - I would be willing to test out a few of these ideas!
Raising weapon speeds will rape all LF. The only reason LF work in the game is that we can dodge just a tiny bit faster then weapons can hit. It is hard enough right now for LF pilots to stay alive with the size of a few of the LF. IE the scimmy. It is pretty huge.
Well...how about this...make the LFs a little tad more maneuverable so that the advantage of them persists. So that these level 7/8 guns can make it into the mod.
"When you get the money, you get the power. When you get the power, you get the women."
-by Tony Montana
Take some existing level 7 guns, and up their speed to something like a gunboat defense turret - say 1400m/s. The guns have a good chance to hit, and hit often. But they do less damage per hit, and drain less energy.
I predict you will have a good pursuit weapon that can fire fast, fire continuously and hit often enough to wear down an enemy. But you wont have an effective jousting weapon as it simply wont do the damage fast enough on a quick pass. This can clearly differentiate the two types of weapon.
If anyone is interested - I would be willing to test out a few of these ideas!
' Wrote:Well...how about this...make the LFs a little tad more maneuverable so that the advantage of them persists. So that these level 7/8 guns can make it into the mod.
There is such a thing as "too manuverable"
When a ship is too fast you end up over-turning, meaning you have to correct yourself constantly
I'd say LFs are about as manuverable as they can be.
An easier solution is to simply not mess with things that are not broken... because as soon as the Dev team does something like this it'll be:
WHY THE HELL DID YOU DO THIS? YOU BROKE DISCOVERY AGAIN!
' Wrote:There is such a thing as "too manuverable"
When a ship is too fast you end up over-turning, meaning you have to correct yourself constantly
I'd say LFs are about as manuverable as they can be.
The addition of new classes of weapon will not unduly harm LFs - as any ship that chooses to use these weapons will have to sacrifice the DPS of heavier guns. It is like having to choose between a MR and a CD. Did the introduction of MRs (which can take out a LF with ease) unduly harm the ship class?
As for increasing the agility of LFs - yes, increasing rotational speed can lead to oversteering. This doesn't apply to other forms of agility, such as strafe speed, thruster acceleration, or Cruise Ramp Time.
' Wrote:An easier solution is to simply not mess with things that are not broken... because as soon as the Dev team does something like this it'll be:
WHY THE HELL DID YOU DO THIS? YOU BROKE DISCOVERY AGAIN!
The argument that people will rail against a change is no reason not to make changes - or else there would never have been ANY changes between mod versions!
The term "not broken" is entirely relative - what is not relative is the average fight time between fighters and larger vessels. That to my mind is the key issue here, because the great disparity between fight lengths is a clear example of something that has been 'broken' since the very beginning of the Discovery mod.