' Wrote:Now to guard reps. I dont think you understand my point. My point is that your ships should NOT be neutral to the guards because the Zoners are NOT neutral to the guards. The Guards are not a different faction, they are defending the secure area's of a faction. No one except someone who is tagged and ID'ed that faction or someone who is tagged and ID'ed allied to that faction should be there. The Zoners are neutral by definition, which does not meet the level to be neutral with the guard faction. I can tell you now, any of your ships found in Tau42 or Omicron 91 will be destroyed on sight, because as I said, they should NOT be there. I mention those two systems because they are the ones I control, I am sure other faction leaders will have much the same response. It is in fact OORP for a Zoner to be neutral to guard factions other than the Zoner guard, GMG guard and I guess Order guard. Those are your allies, if they are not your allies you should NOT be neutral to their guard. I am sure you can find some other way to run your new folks through the wringer.
First thing: In accordance with role playing, Zoners should only enter a Guard system with the permission of a Guard Faction Leader. For example, the other day I entered O-91 by asking the Guards stationed outside the jumphole. If I had a Negative reputation with the Corsair Guard, even upon given clearance to enter that system, the NPCs would have ripped me to shreds. Being neutral with all Guard NPCs does not give us automatic access to Guard systems. But in the case that we are granted access, we know that the NPCs won't give us a hard time.
Secondly: ZTC's request to obtain ultimate nuetrality is probably one of the smartest decisions an elite Guard Faction could make. Above all, you learn a lot about discipline and patience. Ideally, every Guard Faction should make their cadets go through this training, simply because it's a fantastic way to filter the best of the best. Think about how much money and time a cadet will have to spend in order to join the ZTC.
Other points I'd like to address:
Some of you have mentioned that Zoners are too individualistic to have an organized trading company with a military army. To this I say, if Zoners are suppose to be so unorganized, why are they labled under one Faction? Moreover, why do they have Zoner Guards and a Guard System? And why are they given common allies (The Order, GMG)? A horde of individuals would not maintain consistant allies unless they are somehow unified. Furthermore, you cannot have mutually shared philosophies and ideals without a unified society. Which brings me into another point:
Some of you do not feel that Zoners should have a standing army. I'm not sure I see the problem there. Zoners are not hippy, free-loving, flower children. Sure, we are neutral to most everyone, and uphold diplomacy above all else. We are also one of the least aggressive people in Sirius, using violence as a last, last, last resort (if you roleplay properly). And yet, despite the fact that Zoners should be neutral with everyone, they are pirated and harrassed as much as anyone else.
The fact is: very few people give a damn about our neutrality. What do the Corsairs do when they are abused? They call on their brothers. What do the Zoners do when they are harrased? Use their neutrality? Bullcrud. It's useless against most players. So what then, we are to have no neutrality and no battle unit to defend ourselves with? A little easy for the picking aren't we?
I understand that players don't want Zoners to power trade -- hense the undiscriminate pirate taxes against us. But if you spend extra hours trying to gain neutral status with every faction and then get treated with "2 mil or dai biotch," that crosses the line. On a piece of paper the Zoners sound like a nice power trading faction. But in the actual server, it's nothing like that. If other people (primarily pirates) want to bend RP background set-ups, why should the Zoners stick to them. The Discovery Server is a constantly evolving storyline. It seems only natural that the Zoner players should react to the actions of others.
I talked with one of the Director (John Chrichton I guess), and I read this thread, and I'm really interested.
I got a Zoner Whale Zoner Guard ID/IFF, and i create recently a Zoner fighter (a Raven's Talon), I just have to Zoner Guard ID/IFF it, I created it to protect some Zoners convoy in indie way but since your faction propose all I wanted...
I have also some Order char in the Primary Fleet (Order|Tovig.Kelt) si the help with the Order is a really good thing for me.
My name on game is : Zoners|The.Impalaer (my Zoner whale)
Zoners|Kristof.Kelt (my fighter)
See you soon in game of here to see if I can join you !:)
A few weeks have passed since our last update here. The ZTC is a vivid group now slowly but steadily growing. We've discussed some of the critical points posted here, and we've experienced little flaws of design for ourselves.
Quote:Now to guard reps. I dont think you understand my point. My point is that your ships should NOT be neutral to the guards because the Zoners are NOT neutral to the guards. The Guards are not a different faction, they are defending the secure area's of a faction. No one except someone who is tagged and ID'ed that faction or someone who is tagged and ID'ed allied to that faction should be there. The Zoners are neutral by definition, which does not meet the level to be neutral with the guard faction. I can tell you now, any of your ships found in Tau42 or Omicron 91 will be destroyed on sight, because as I said, they should NOT be there. I mention those two systems because they are the ones I control, I am sure other faction leaders will have much the same response. It is in fact OORP for a Zoner to be neutral to guard factions other than the Zoner guard, GMG guard and I guess Order guard. Those are your allies, if they are not your allies you should NOT be neutral to their guard. I am sure you can find some other way to run your new folks through the wringer.
This argumentation would be consistent if guards weren't allowed to leave their guard system, which doesn't seem to be a useful technical rule (who's practicing it?), so if guards are leaving their limited areas of responsibility they should not show a hostile attitude to those who aren't foes of their faction - 'red', 'white', 'green' have unchangeable semantics. If there'd be a more simplified representation of relations like only 'hostile', 'tolerant' and 'friendly', without any kind of scale and with just one of these three states, I'd agree with this kind of view perhaps, but the scale allows differeniated reputations. By default the neutrality towards guards hasn't the same quality as towards regular faction members.
We're interpreting guards as being skeptical of everybody but their own faction and protective concerning their own factions' interests (not only concerning their guard systems) than regular faction members, and we're even having much more work to do for reaching a state of 'scarcely neutral' with them, but we also think that guards are nonetheless parts of their factions, and either we're neutral towards a faction, this includes guards as well, or we'd have to question the design of guard reputations or their significance.
This doesn't mean that diplomatic neutrality grants permission to enter guard systems automatically. Just to mention it: we're also expecting that regular faction members protect their guard systems as guards would do. All in all we don't share the view that the only reason for the existence of faction guards are the faction's guard systems.
We're playing our characters always asking for permission to enter guard systems - if possible! During the character preparation and in absence of faction members we're breaking this rule for fixing purposes only. We're also trying to avoid visits in guard systems for the repfix by asking guard players for a short rendez-vous to fix our replists. Completed characters have to follow the general conduct of diplomacy by asking for permission to enter a guard system. Opposed to Zelot's opinion we've made the experience that most guards react with sympathy when asked politely for permission to enter their guard system for the repfix.
The complete repfix is a real challange, and we want it to be hard enough to select only those who're really determined to play a Zoner character. It requires patience, endurance and a minimum of planning at least, but we've also found out and thus got sure of our approach, that everybody passing this kind of training knows the price of neutrality, which is not only a technical issue to be fixed for passing some systems safely. Our dropout quote is accordingly high (about 90%), and it always hurts to tell interested players that we cannot make exceptions or change our repfix rules to level access to our group, but the results still seem to be promising. All of our members know how to act with personal responsibility representing the balanced view of a typical Zoner.
Especially this has lead us to a second reform of our ranks. We have simplified them once again reducing the hierarchy as well as avoiding military sounding titles. Reason for the latter is a Zoner attribute best described by 'voluntariness' which conforms with the spirit of freedom loving Borderworlders concentrating on peaceful civilizing instead of military power plays. This conforms also with the definition of a consortium. Though the necessity for a security fleet is still unquestionable a strictly organized chain of command isn't required anymore.
All this is reflected by recent changes of the ZTC structure, and the following ranks:
Cadet
Requirements: Short character bio on our forum.
This is the entry point, usually a newly created character.
Captain
Requirements: Zoner Guard IFF. Complete repfix including all guards (Gallia skipped for now)
This is the main ship representing the character named (]c[)<first name>.<last name>. The character is member of the ZTC but has no voting rights.
Delegate Captain or simply Delegate
Requirements: A second ship (Zoner Guard IFF) with a complete repfix without guards has to be created for the Whale. Donation of 100Mc to the ZTC bank. (Should the ZTC ever got approved on Disco the player will have to post his character's complete bio to the forum here).
From this point on the character has the right to vote, and he's also eligible.
Board Member
Requirements: Elected by ZTC Delegates.
5 board members must exist, 3 votes to pass a decision.
This should cover now all main points of critique posted earlier in this thread, but we would again appreciate your thoughts, opinions and critiques, before we'll be updating our proposal by end of this week.
1. Kill Zoners until they're completely hostile to you.
2. Go to a GMG base and get a double bribe.
3. Congratulations! Now you can power trade! No one is allowed to touch you!
Pirates understand that this is what most players go for, which is why they don't give a crap about Zoner neutrality. That's not so good for the rest of us Zoners that are actually trying to Roleplay properly.
One of (]c[)'s goals is to set an example for other Zoner Guards by going though a proper reputation fixing exercise. It's long and demanding, so we hope this will demonstrate to all Pirate players that we take the role of Zoner Guards seriously.