Zoner ships in Rheinland (not including warships, but they're not in Rheinland anyway) are civilians. Therefore in our space we are oblidged to protect them against forces that are hostile to us. But no hostile forces in Rheinland pirate Zoners anyway.
Now the WRF are attacking Zoners in Rheinland, who count as civilians. So therefore the Polizei are going to defend them. Now if the RMHC support the WRF in this and choose to therefore help in the attack on Rheinland civilians (the Zoners) in Rheinland space, then the Polizei have to stop them.
InRP all of the pilots of the Polizei (and the Rheinwehr) have taken an oath to protect Rheinland citizens and civilians who do not break the law in Rheinland space. The Joker is a civilian who has broken the law so we do not protect him, we hunt him. But the Zoners have broken no laws by bringing perfectly legal cargo into Rheinland space.
So the Polizei would be breaking their oath by supporting the Rheinwehr in assaulting civilians who have broken no laws. The NPCs have taken this oath as well, InRP, so they would not support the Rheinwehr in this action either. Therefore the Polizei can not exist if Rheinland is taking these sorts of actions against civilians in Rheinland.
Yes, the civilians of Liberty with their corps are not allowed in Rheinland. But that's because Liberty and Rheinland are in a war and the Polizei supports the Rheinwehr in it. The WRF has declared war for Rheinland without the consent of the RMHC, against the Zoners who are just peaceful people living their lives and not bothering anybody. And the Polizei isn't going to support that.
So it makes no sense to have a Rheinland Police NPC faction in the game if the RM side with the WRF.
P.S. And yes, there is nothing against this in the rules. Just don't let it get too far like the OPG - HAF thing.
[17:45:39] Wolfs Ghost (Murphy): Tom, you have problems. Go kill yourself.
[19:25:12] Johnny (Jam): Tomtom, I will beat you with a spoon.
[14:22:56] Prarabdh Thakur: KILL HIM WITH A SHEEP.
[17:40:48] Eagle (Junes): Tom should be slapped with a spoon.
[11:32:18] Warspite: Thank you for being so awesome Tom. <3
[18:17:36] Metano: I love you tomtom
[20:06:24] Warspite: I will seriously give you epic head.
' Wrote:Edit: also, Tomtomrawr, fappin' like a boss.
I guess my question is this, though, because I've been following what's shown up on the forums.
WTF is the WRF doing in Omega-3?
Quote:Rheinland is defined as the combination of the systems: New Berlin, Dresden, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Munich, Braunschweig, Halle, Omega-15 (near the Schwerin), Omega-7, Omega-11, and Bremen.
All Rheinland Police vessels are never to leave Rheinland. Military vessels may only venture to New Hampshire, Bering, Hudson, Omega 7, southern Sigma 13 (no further as the ALG debries field) and Texas to engage Libertonian forces.
You're operating in a system where you have no military authority. Who cares what is going on in Omega 3, from the perspective of the RM...
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
' Wrote:Oh i dont think so, in RP junker are unwanted subjects in Omega 7 in our ZOI and if we catch them we suggest them to leave or open fire, and if we catch them even with Ore, ok than it is clear, the ore count as stolen, because the junker have no mining rights and if he is not signed in an official contract with daumann or kruger he must drop the ore, if he want or not, or his ship is dust in the skies soon (and Ore isnt Contraband Cargo just for the files). In RP everyone knows that Zoners hide unlawfuls and deliver them (support them) it is a normal reaction that we prefer to support other militaries like BAF instead of closing our eyes. But honestly i guess it wouldnt be come so far.
After reading this... I'm convinced that WRF needs Vigilante IDs, and lose the ships you are currently in. You are not behaving in accordance with the ID you have and frankly, going this far could (and should) get you sanctioned based on a 6.6 and 6.10 violation.
Engagement rules (snipped irrelevant parts for reader ease)]6.6 Aggressors are not allowed to destroy a trade vessel prior to issuing a demand and allowing sufficient time to respond. Demands may be cargo, credits or an RP demand, such as leaving the system. Halt" is not a demand.
6.10 Player reputation and conduct must match player actions. For instance a player may not dock on a base belonging to the persons whom they are attacking or being attacked by.[/quote Wrote:[quote="Rheinland Military ID (snipped irrelevant parts for reader ease)]Pilot carrying this ID is in the Rheinland Military, who :
Can destroy traders in Rheinland who belong to corporations headquartered in Houses that Rheinland is at war with if the trader refuses to drop all cargo and leave Rheinland. Synth Foods transports are exempt unless carrying contraband or embargoed war materials.
Can hunt pirates and terrorists within their Zone of Influence
Cannot ally with any unlawfuls except with Rheinland unlawfuls against non-Rheinland pirate or military invasions
Can demand contraband, levy fines and destroy ships if they refuse to comply,
Cannot participate in any unlawful actions
So, what would these Zoners fall under? Pirate? Terrorist? Hostile military? I can understand attacking a Junker based on the assumption it's a pirate, but even for that you'd need some evidence (or just demand they leave the system). Attacking civilian vessels from factions Rheinland is not at war with is a violation of the constraints of the Rheinland Military ID (unless they carry contraband). And since there are no Zoner bases in Rheinland's sphere of influence (that I know of) complaining they allow pirates to dock is a mock reason. Omega 3 is a Bretonian protectorate. If you want to boot bases pirates can dock on, axe the junker depots.
IMG base Freistadt sometimes has Hessians docking there ('though we try to discourage it). Will you start shooting IMG next? And who will you bully after that?
Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.
Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.
' Wrote:I can understand attacking a Junker based on the assumption it's a pirate, but even for that you'd need some evidence.
There is a legitimate bounty from the Kusari government on Junkers valid anywhere in Sirius. This bounty cannot be collected in the house space of Liberty, Rhienland, or Bretonia without violating the laws of the houses (unless the Junker himself is violating the law of that house) because it's pure and simple murder then. We established that a long time ago.
The authority of the WRF ends at the jump gate leaving Omega 7 - stay in your own territory.
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
From a VR perspective here, I bob obout the Omega's a bit now, and the WRF are an interesting bunch.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, you're a specialised wing of the Military, focusing on Westernt Rhienlkand (Ie. O7) right? Now, as a wing under the RM NPC faction, you wouldn't be able to speak for yourselves, as you would only be subordinate to the actual RM. If you did go ahead with a civil war (Or probably even just the zoner incident already) you would be court marshalled and the ruling body of the WRF would be kicked out of the military.
As such, starting a fight with any other Rhienland force wouldn't be you as part of the military doing it, as you'd have been discharged at the first sign or disloyalty, so you would need say a vigilante ID (Maybe with RM IFF though?)
That's my opinion.
First of all Spirit!, you keep saying that the RMHC are against the WRF. I have yet to see a post of this.
But what I have seen posts about is that the RMHC have ordered (in post #6 but "asking" in post #12 - interpret it as you wish) the RFP to cease all hostilities with the WRF.
So you can stop saying that statement now, thank you.
Secondly, yes Agmen, the WRF's patrol area does not include Omega-3. But guess what, things have changed. They have heard about BAF's move against the Zoners in Omega-3 and they have personally witnessed the Zoners harboring large hostile forces at the Freeport of Omega-3, right next to their doorstep. Therefore they have under the basis of aiding the Bretonian house and guarding their own interests all the rights to step in and take action.
Thirdly, even as the Leader of an Official Faction TomTom, you do not have the power to demand an entire NPC Faction to be utterly removed from the game. You are crazy to even suggest that you do have that power. Nobody has that power, only Igiss can make such a decision - of course you are always welcomed to make a proposal. But that is how far you can go.
Fourthly, the RM will not kick out the WRF and therefore they should keep their RM ID. They are not breaking any rules either and these attempts at cheap-shotting them through server rules is downright pathetic. But of course, the Admins have the final word on the rules.
Finally, through the eyes of the rules, Zoners should be defined as civilians, freelancers or traders. All of these groups are subject to diplomacy change towards a house if that specific house decides a diplomacy change to be in effect. End of story.
' Wrote:First of all Spirit!, you keep saying that the RMHC are against the WRF. I have yet to see a post of this. [...]
With that I was refering to the "Civil war" that was mentioned, and if it came down to a "Civil War" where the WRF shot at RM (Faction, inie or NPC) then they would InRP be court-marshalled, and such likes...
' Wrote:[...] Fourthly, the RM will not kick out the WRF and therefore they should keep their RM ID. They are not breaking any rules either and these attempts at cheap-shotting them through server rules is downright pathetic. But of course, the Admins have the final word on the rules. [...]
Again, I was only suggesting this for the "Civil war" as in that case, I believe they would a) be kicked out of the military, and b) therefore not able to use the RM ID
The WRF does not have the power to decide in diplomatic matters. Only the RMHQ can, but with all the silence in this matter, they are giving WRF a card blanc to do what they want.
If the WRF behaved has a normal branch of the RM and not like a bunch of hooligans working for Daumann, maybe they would be respected.
As for the statement that they "saw" enemies docking on O3 Freeport...that makes no sense. The zoners are a Sirius organization, in wich every Freeport harbors every kind of pilot. So do the junkers. And you won't be shooting all junkers you see just because you know OORP that criminals dock on their bases and they do contraband. As others organizations do. OORP you know Hogosha pirates but you will not shoot Hogoshas on your KNF, unless you see it in the act, and even so, you won't kill every Hogosha from that point on.
So, this all WRF matter is so OORP that stinks. But, like they are trying to shoot zoners makes it fine?
Civil War on Rheinland? I doubt that. Unless you want all unlawfulls allying with RFP and start controling every systems, because the RM is mostly worried to stop the Liberty incursions. OORP the unlawfuls could and can control every systems.
So, WRFs pilots, stop the hostilities unless you want more problems than you asked for.
' Wrote:The WRF does not have the power to decide in diplomatic matters. Only the RMHQ can, but with all the silence in this matter, they are giving WRF a card blanc to do what they want.
Yep, that is how it is.
' Wrote:If the WRF behaved has a normal branch of the RM and not like a bunch of hooligans working for Daumann, maybe they would be respected.
They are a Rheinland Military branch that have participated on numerous occasions in Liberty-raids (I have faced them many times on my [LN]) and they do patrol Rheinland territory (I have faced them in New Berlin, and in Stuttgart many times on my [RHA]) - but their primary patrol area is the bordering Omega systems. I see nothing wrong with that, they just want to focus on an area the [RM] are not. That is only good, it gives diversity within the same NPC Faction.
Only 2 DHC members are in the WRF, I think the WRF amounts up to 15 or more members, could be wrong.
' Wrote:As for the statement that they "saw" enemies docking on O3 Freeport...that makes no sense. The zoners are a Sirius organization, in wich every Freeport harbors every kind of pilot. So do the junkers. And you won't be shooting all junkers you see just because you know OORP that criminals dock on their bases and they do contraband. As others organizations do. OORP you know Hogosha pirates but you will not shoot Hogoshas on your KNF, unless you see it in the act, and even so, you won't kill every Hogosha from that point on.
Well, no point in arguing here, this is a dead-end debate.
' Wrote:So, this all WRF matter is so OORP that stinks. But, like they are trying to shoot zoners makes it fine?
If you think the WRF are OORP, then surely you must also think that the [RM] are acting OORP, since they clearly are not against it. Which they would be if this was purely in an out-of-Role-Play context. But keep on with the subjective bashing, you are doing good so far.
' Wrote:Civil War on Rheinland? I doubt that. Unless you want all unlawfulls allying with RFP and start controling every systems, because the RM is mostly worried to stop the Liberty incursions. OORP the unlawfuls could and can control every systems.
I suggest you stop saying things which you have no control over. You might be a part of the AGS-U/L and they might support the RFP, but the RHA might not, and the same could be said for the Bundsuch.
RFP can't make the Rheinland Unlawful Factions green to them. Trust me, you can try but it won't go well with the higher powers. If you are talking about in-game presence and activity, I will just answer that with -
"You and what army?":lol:
' Wrote:So, WRFs pilots, stop the hostilities unless you want more problems than you asked for.
' Wrote:Secondly, yes Agmen, the WRF's patrol area does not include Omega-3. But guess what, things have changed. They have heard about BAF's move against the Zoners in Omega-3 and they have personally witnessed the Zoners harboring large hostile forces at the Freeport of Omega-3, right next to their doorstep. Therefore they have under the basis of aiding the Bretonian house and guarding their own interests all the rights to step in and take action.
You realize that you're violating several military laws and treaties by those actions, right?
At the very least, a court martial should be in the future of whoever was in charge of that diplomatic fiasco. You violated sovereign Bretonian space with a war-fleet. (Now, whether you're found guilty at that court martial trial is another thing, but I leave that for the military command.)
Your comments on here regarding this indicate to me that you've never actually served in a military. You can't just do stuff like head out of your assigned territory like that. My actual recommendation would be that if you want to kill Zoners, go do it in something OTHER than your WRF ships. That's just not what they should be doing. Hell, Zoners have been letting Corsairs and other unmentionables dock at Freeport 1 for ages, and the Bretonian government knows that.
In other words, before you screw with what someone else has going on in their sovereign space, you should let THEM try to handle it. If Bretonia thought it was bad enough, they could easily hire the Bounty Hunters Guild or the Mandalorians to handle it.
Again, key words here - sovereign space, where you have no authority to be in the first place. PERIOD! (Seriously, you may as well go up to Bering and blow up the Freeport there - that would at least make sense from an RP perspective, since that's actually where Rheinland has a shooting war going on...)
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.