(10-17-2014, 12:23 AM)Chrystoph Wrote: So, let us be blunt here, no circumlocutions.
You are saying that we MUST forget that the pirates attacked us, even if they are following us, until they actually attack.
Time to take away all the Zoner combat capability, we'll forget how to use it by tomorrow anyway.
You of course know who attacked you. You just aren´t allowed to open fire first.
But one of possible solutions which I didn´t mention earlier since it´s little closer to ooRP border: if you fly in at least two players, simply one of you take char with pirate ID, RPing pirate friend of your zoner group. Then if another pirate appears, your friendly pirate can make demand to him to leave system (or even better, simply to pay some money), and if the demand is not met, he may attack without any problem.
Ok. HC member of a Zoner Official Faction here. here's a few things to think about, for those who have trouble with one of the simplest IDs in Disco.
(10-16-2014, 11:33 PM)Laura C. Wrote: Third but complicated option is that you try to contact official zoner factions, tell them who you have problems with, and maybe they will FR5 them for pirating fellow zoners what will make their life little more complicated as there is not much places for pirate IDs to dock and this will reduce them significantly.
Here. If you've been pirated by someone, send evidence to the official factions (Thats TAZ, OSI and Phoenix.) and if there is enough evidence to get an FR5, one will be applied for. However, we cant take just your word on it (because of grudges that may form).
If you have no proof, or inconclusive proof, then we cant help you with an FR5. Aside from that, as Garrett said, learn to deal with it like other Zoner players have. Talk with the pirate, try and work out a deal for passage or something. Or, as Laura suggested, hire freelancer escorts.
(10-16-2014, 11:45 PM)FeralCallsign Wrote: I am in agreement with Zen. Self-defense should encompass defense of their own space against aggressors. In this case, anyone who comes into a system that is within their ZOI and starts popping their members/allies should be considered actively hostile and thus would fall within the bounds of "self defense."
See, now here is the big hole in your argument (and it's large enough to fly a neph through) is that the Zoner ID has a 'whole Sirius' ZOI. Also, aside from a few exceptions, Zoners dont really "claim" systems.
If a zoner is being engaged by someone, and you are there, then you can help them in self-defense. That's the 'Zoner way'. But if they are being passive, even if they have pirated the zoner in the past, you cannot do anything.
As Garrett said, The Admins and the Community have been dealing with those who want Aggressive or "militant" zoners for a while now. Led particularly by Zen, the co-creator of 50,000 Zoner marines.
If you want pew pew freedoms, pick another ID. Also, dont think "Zoner Neutrality" will protect you from everything. That's a semi-myth.
Add:
(10-17-2014, 12:23 AM)Chrystoph Wrote: Time to take away all the Zoner combat capability, we'll forget how to use it by tomorrow anyway.
Taking caps away from zoner indies would be very nice, but harmful to the server. so it's unlikely to happen. However, having caps comes with that drawback of not being able to initiate pew for a reason, which should be obvious.
I'd also like to go on record that the logic that a Zoner cannot be aggressive because of belief, but can hire someone to do it for him is flimsy at best. If they truly were as you describe them, that course of action would be equally repulsive because they would recognize it as a cat's paw maneuver.
We all have an Angelic and a Demonic side. Use of them determines good or evil in the end.
(10-17-2014, 12:38 AM)Chrystoph Wrote: I'd also like to go on record that the logic that a Zoner cannot be aggressive because of belief, but can hire someone to do it for him is flimsy at best. If they truly were as you describe them, that course of action would be equally repulsive because they would recognize it as a cat's paw maneuver.
Hm... i think you are getting a misunderstanding. Zoners are not pacifists. They just prefer to solve things with words, not violence.
Violence is for self-defense and defense of other zoners when they are being attacked, nothing more.
(10-17-2014, 12:35 AM)Sabru Wrote: Ok. HC member of a Zoner Official Faction here. here's a few things to think about, for those who have trouble with one of the simplest IDs in Disco.
(10-16-2014, 11:33 PM)Laura C. Wrote: Third but complicated option is that you try to contact official zoner factions, tell them who you have problems with, and maybe they will FR5 them for pirating fellow zoners what will make their life little more complicated as there is not much places for pirate IDs to dock and this will reduce them significantly.
Here. If you've been pirated by someone, send evidence to the official factions (Thats TAZ, OSI and Phoenix.) and if there is enough evidence to get an FR5, one will be applied for. However, we cant take just your word on it (because of grudges that may form).
If you have no proof, or inconclusive proof, then we cant help you with an FR5. Aside from that, as Garrett said, learn to deal with it like other Zoner players have. Talk with the pirate, try and work out a deal for passage or something. Or, as Laura suggested, hire freelancer escorts.
What a long winded way of saying, Get with the program and subordinate yourself to the official faction.
I also reiterate my opinion that no true Zoner would resort to the idea of hiring someone to do their dirty work.The very idea is a rationalization, and a poor one at that. I never said that I thought Zoners were pacifists, I just happen to think the idea that, day after day after day, you let the same thug assault you and wait until he does so to fight back is ridiculous.
As to "try and work out a deal for passage or something", consider this, the people in question have been playing pirates nonstop for at least six months. I have a screen shot from when I was having firewall problems of Charles.Wagner attacking me AFTER I posted that I was having game troubles. I didn't post the screenie earlier because I correctly felt that at least part of the fault was mine because it ended up being my firewall that was causing the problem. None-the-less, he shot and killed me after that statement.
These people have been doing this since the day after the base went public on the forums. They are so bold in their behavior that they base ships on Cameron in Omega 9 so they can metagame when they see [Star] players login.
You want us to pay blackmail for the right of passage in our own space, nothing more, nothing less. How long would you put up with having to pay someone to bring your groceries into your home because they point a gun at you EVERY time they see you? Apparently, the Zoner answer is, forever.
(10-17-2014, 12:35 AM)Sabru Wrote:
(10-16-2014, 11:45 PM)FeralCallsign Wrote: I am in agreement with Zen. Self-defense should encompass defense of their own space against aggressors. In this case, anyone who comes into a system that is within their ZOI and starts popping their members/allies should be considered actively hostile and thus would fall within the bounds of "self defense."
See, now here is the big hole in your argument (and it's large enough to fly a neph through) is that the Zoner ID has a 'whole Sirius' ZOI. Also, aside from a few exceptions, Zoners dont really "claim" systems.
If a zoner is being engaged by someone, and you are there, then you can help them in self-defense. That's the 'Zoner way'. But if they are being passive, even if they have pirated the zoner in the past, you cannot do anything.
As Garrett said, The Admins and the Community have been dealing with those who want Aggressive or "militant" zoners for a while now. Led particularly by Zen, the co-creator of 50,000 Zoner marines.
If you want pew pew freedoms, pick another ID. Also, dont think "Zoner Neutrality" will protect you from everything. That's a semi-myth.
Why is it that first thing you do is to reconstruct the argument to turn us into rampaging Corsairs? We have a base, we have people that are predating on the base and the ships that support it. We are not making an army and invading Bretonia. The real answer here is that you are painting us with your old brush, and conveniently filing us as, Guilty, period.
(10-17-2014, 12:35 AM)Sabru Wrote: Add:
(10-17-2014, 12:23 AM)Chrystoph Wrote: Time to take away all the Zoner combat capability, we'll forget how to use it by tomorrow anyway.
Taking caps away from zoner indies would be very nice, but harmful to the server. so it's unlikely to happen. However, having caps comes with that drawback of not being able to initiate pew for a reason, which should be obvious.
Oh, look, another misdirection, and another demand that we get with your program at the same time. Why bother making statements when you aren't actually going to be arguing the issue?
Fine, fine, since the Zoners are too air-headed to remember that specific murderers killed their fellows (and how anyone can operate a starship with that level of processing power is beyond me), auto hotkey and bounty hunting are now in season.
As a final thought, if there were population variables in the game, Zoners would die out within a generation because they don't have the necessary survival skills without artificial assistance.
We all have an Angelic and a Demonic side. Use of them determines good or evil in the end.
The Zoners not being able to attack those who have (and do) actively pirate them before they begin pirating them again makes no sense in the real world or inRP. Having a blind adherence to the rules that restricts people from playing their characters in a way that makes sense is the main problem. Zoners being neutral doesn't mean they're stupid or (as mentioned before) passivists. If a group of pirates that has pirated in the past, is actively pirating, and are taking actions that suggest they will pirate in the immediate future are an active and immediate threat that no reasonable human being would deny.
Saying that they can't do it 'cause it's the rules is dogmatic at best. Gotta be able to bend within reason here.
__________________________________ I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain. One always finds one's burden again... The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
Real life and inRP life are one thing, game balance another.
Zoners doesn´t have any direct enemies except nomads, their ZOI is basically whole Sirius, they have no cargo restrictions and can fly capital ships including battleships. No other ID has all this. So this has to be balanced, so they can´t dock in house space with the biggest ships (but still there are exceptions and you can go around this by cooperation with another player with Freelancer or any other ID). And they can´t start fights, what´s their only real restriction.
Reason? If you would allow zoners to start fights, sooner or later somebody would make Sirius police from them, hunting pirates and other criminals all around. What would sooner or later harm zoner diplomacy.
Zoners never attack outside self-defence to be sure their diplomacy won´t be affected. So if they need it because there is somebody they can´t have deal with, they use diplomatic strings or secretly hire someone else to do the job. Because you never know who the pirate really is and who´s friend he is. Attacking first is always diplomatic risk, even if it´s "pre-emptive" defense.
If zoners would get blank ticket to start fight, then their ID must be restricted in something else to balance it. Try to consider it from this point of view - from game balance point of view.
(10-17-2014, 12:35 AM)Sabru Wrote: Ok. HC member of a Zoner Official Faction here. here's a few things to think about, for those who have trouble with one of the simplest IDs in Disco.
(10-16-2014, 11:33 PM)Laura C. Wrote: Third but complicated option is that you try to contact official zoner factions, tell them who you have problems with, and maybe they will FR5 them for pirating fellow zoners what will make their life little more complicated as there is not much places for pirate IDs to dock and this will reduce them significantly.
Here. If you've been pirated by someone, send evidence to the official factions (Thats TAZ, OSI and Phoenix.) and if there is enough evidence to get an FR5, one will be applied for. However, we cant take just your word on it (because of grudges that may form).
If you have no proof, or inconclusive proof, then we cant help you with an FR5. Aside from that, as Garrett said, learn to deal with it like other Zoner players have. Talk with the pirate, try and work out a deal for passage or something. Or, as Laura suggested, hire freelancer escorts.
What a long winded way of saying, Get with the program and subordinate yourself to the official faction. - That's how it works here. The official factions are the arbiters of their NPC faction. If you dont want to involve them, fine. But dont QQ and demand ridiculous changes just so you can chase a vendetta.
I also reiterate my opinion that no true Zoner would resort to the idea of hiring someone to do their dirty work.The very idea is a rationalization, and a poor one at that. I never said that I thought Zoners were pacifists, I just happen to think the idea that, day after day after day, you let the same thug assault you and wait until he does so to fight back is ridiculous.
As to "try and work out a deal for passage or something", consider this, the people in question have been playing pirates nonstop for at least six months. I have a screen shot from when I was having firewall problems of Charles.Wagner attacking me AFTER I posted that I was having game troubles. I didn't post the screenie earlier because I correctly felt that at least part of the fault was mine because it ended up being my firewall that was causing the problem. None-the-less, he shot and killed me after that statement.
These people have been doing this since the day after the base went public on the forums. They are so bold in their behavior that they base ships on Cameron in Omega 9 so they can metagame when they see [Star] players login.
If you think they are committing rule violations, send evidence to the admins for sanction. If you dont want to do that, then dont QQ all over the forums.
You want us to pay blackmail for the right of passage in our own space, nothing more, nothing less. How long would you put up with having to pay someone to bring your groceries into your home because they point a gun at you EVERY time they see you? Apparently, the Zoner answer is, forever.
- There's that assertion again. "our space." I said before: apart from a few exceptions, zoner dont really claim space. Just because you chucked up a base by powertrading and jumptrading does not make it your space.
(10-17-2014, 12:35 AM)Sabru Wrote:
(10-16-2014, 11:45 PM)FeralCallsign Wrote: I am in agreement with Zen. Self-defense should encompass defense of their own space against aggressors. In this case, anyone who comes into a system that is within their ZOI and starts popping their members/allies should be considered actively hostile and thus would fall within the bounds of "self defense."
See, now here is the big hole in your argument (and it's large enough to fly a neph through) is that the Zoner ID has a 'whole Sirius' ZOI. Also, aside from a few exceptions, Zoners dont really "claim" systems.
If a zoner is being engaged by someone, and you are there, then you can help them in self-defense. That's the 'Zoner way'. But if they are being passive, even if they have pirated the zoner in the past, you cannot do anything.
As Garrett said, The Admins and the Community have been dealing with those who want Aggressive or "militant" zoners for a while now. Led particularly by Zen, the co-creator of 50,000 Zoner marines.
If you want pew pew freedoms, pick another ID. Also, dont think "Zoner Neutrality" will protect you from everything. That's a semi-myth.
Why is it that first thing you do is to reconstruct the argument to turn us into rampaging Corsairs? We have a base, we have people that are predating on the base and the ships that support it. We are not making an army and invading Bretonia. The real answer here is that you are painting us with your old brush, and conveniently filing us as, Guilty, period.
- First. Now where did i mention corsairs?
Secondly, as has been pointed out, HIRE SOMEONE to defend your base. The Zoner ID is not for those who think it will give them immunity to all harm, or allow them to actively take out dangerous enemies.
(10-17-2014, 12:35 AM)Sabru Wrote: Add:
(10-17-2014, 12:23 AM)Chrystoph Wrote: Time to take away all the Zoner combat capability, we'll forget how to use it by tomorrow anyway.
Taking caps away from zoner indies would be very nice, but harmful to the server. so it's unlikely to happen. However, having caps comes with that drawback of not being able to initiate pew for a reason, which should be obvious.
Oh, look, another misdirection, and another demand that we get with your program at the same time. Why bother making statements when you aren't actually going to be arguing the issue?
- That's the way it works newbies. you get with the existing program. Adapt to survive. People who jump around screaming about wanting things changed to their way, usually draw the ire of the community quite quickly.
Fine, fine, since the Zoners are too air-headed to remember that specific murderers killed their fellows (and how anyone can operate a starship with that level of processing power is beyond me), auto hotkey and bounty hunting are now in season.
You arent getting it. Your char can remember, but you cant pew them preemptively. That's not the way it works.there is a line where "realism" becomes harmful to a game.
As a final thought, if there were population variables in the game, Zoners would die out within a generation because they don't have the necessary survival skills without artificial assistance.
- So shooting everyone who's wronged a zoner in the past is "having the necessary survival skills"? If things were that way, zoners would be killed off by everyone long ago for shooting them for old incidents.
(10-17-2014, 01:48 AM)Laura C. Wrote: Real life and inRP life are one thing, game balance another.
Zoners doesn´t have any direct enemies except nomads, their ZOI is basically whole Sirius, they have no cargo restrictions and can fly capital ships including battleships. No other ID has all this. So this has to be balanced, so they can´t dock in house space with the biggest ships (but still there are exceptions and you can go around this by cooperation with another player with Freelancer or any other ID). And they can´t start fights, what´s their only real restriction.
Reason? If you would allow zoners to start fights, sooner or later somebody would make Sirius police from them, hunting pirates and other criminals all around. What would sooner or later harm zoner diplomacy.
Zoners never attack outside self-defence to be sure their diplomacy won´t be affected. So if they need it because there is somebody they can´t have deal with, they use diplomatic strings or secretly hire someone else to do the job. Because you never know who the pirate really is and who´s friend he is. Attacking first is always diplomatic risk, even if it´s "pre-emptive" defense.
If zoners would get blank ticket to start fight, then their ID must be restricted in something else to balance it. Try to consider it from this point of view - from game balance point of view.
This is a very good point. I suppose the only way to deal with something like this is to determine what is included in sense defense. In this case, I would say these particular Zoners are being actively hunted by people broadcasting the same IFF and callsign. Would attacking your hunters before they fire the opening salvo not be considered self defense?
I understand that approaching this on a case-by-case basis would be very time consuming, but I think flexibility withing the bounds of maintaining server balance is an appropriate response. Hell, that's what this subforum is for haha
Edit: I would like to stress that this isn't a question of whether or not these Zoners can take vengeance on those who have attacked them in the past; it's more of a question as to whether or not hostiles that have proven themselves hostile time and time again can be preemptively engaged when it is apparent they are about to engage in another hostile act.
__________________________________ I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain. One always finds one's burden again... The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
(10-17-2014, 02:02 AM)FeralCallsign Wrote: Edit: I would like to stress that this isn't a question of whether or not these Zoners can take vengeance on those who have attacked them in the past; it's more of a question as to whether or not hostiles that have proven themselves hostile time and time again can be preemptively engaged when it is apparent they are about to engage in another hostile act.