(12-30-2014, 10:01 PM)Deeceem Wrote: Huh, I always forget that GMG has its own space for some reason, my bad. So they should technically be able to enforce their laws in their space. However, the GMG laws say the following about fines:
Quote:3. Fines
3.1 GMG pilots have the option to fine transgressors, confiscate illegal cargo, or both depending on the situation. Your fine will depend on your ship class and the cargo you carry:
Fighters and Bombers will be fined 1,000,000 credits.
Freighters will be fined 1,500,000 credits.
Gunboats and Gunships will be fined 2,000,000 credits.
Transports will be fined between 3,000,000 and 5,000,000 credits.
GMG pilots may add to or subtract from these listed fines if they find it necessary to do so.
3.2 Refusal to cooperate with GMG pilots will immediately mark you as a hostile target and you will be executed at the discretion of the GMG pilot.
3.3 If you successfully resist arrest or refuse to pay a fine, your name will be added to GMG bounty board at the discretion of the GMG pilot.
Since there is nothing about fining people for simply traversing their territory, I'd stick with "No, except Kruger and Samura vessels."
Those are the laws of one group the GMG| to be exact wich are very well within the ID but the other groups might disagree they have a diferent view on the RP and have diference position while staying within the boundaries of the ID.
You can not force one group to obey someone else RP if they dont whant it to while they are within the GMG ID
These are the currently accepted laws of that space if not wanting to follow them why use a GMG id? If wanting to change them then that needs appropriate rationale and role play to bring about. The same as what went into the current situation. Direction for sorting out RP possibly? Anarchy does not work and currently Official Factions are custodians of law- Tunicle
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Sindrom, Rheinland won't go on a war with GMG simply because you got pirated by GMG - for them you are worthless and expandable. That's the real view - Ain't no "Oh if they shoot people then rheinland will help us " - No they won't, they rather see you die over and over again and to not lose anything more then what they have lost. Your view point doesn't account the current state of Disco.
Question was not really about personalities or RP consequences. However if a toll was to appear that should be sensibly RP's with interested parties. Which could range froman accepted tax all the way through to war, but needs playing out - Tunicle
(12-30-2014, 09:55 PM)Hauler Wrote: Who said i'm upset i'm just having a diferent opinion the subject of this discusion is well under the ID and rule boundaries as owners of Sigma 13 can do what they whant within their space *aslong as they are within their ID and rules* i'm not saying they can simply engage and pirate anyone threating them with guns if they dont pay cause GMG are not pirates what i'm saying they can make laws rules and decide what is good for them and others and what is not in their own souveren teritory and that is all Sigmas and Okinawa.
Clearly you are either not getting or simply ignoring the fact that the GMG ID ( nor the GMG laws concerning fines as Deeceem posted) does not specify anything about charging/taxing traders/vessels for passage through the Sigmas. So I'll just leave it at that.
(12-30-2014, 09:28 PM)Hauler Wrote: Well ID says they can ask for levy fines so people can use lot of RP justification for it GMG| officials have diferent aproach they dont do it, but some others indie players or indie factions have totaly oposite position but both are within the GMG ID.
So Sigma 13 is space of GMG both GMG| officials and those indies they are both within the ID RP stands are diferent and since that is GMG space what ever GMG does in it's own space is lawful for them as long as it's within their ID.
Levy fines are not just punishments for violations of the some law they are fines for everything for example spiting in space, bad words, etc etc etc... and in the end use of GMG stuff by other factions or groups can be also charged or issued a levy fine ya whana use my house to get faster to the neighbour well you must pay in order to pass thrue my house and get there or i whont let you thrue it if you dont pay using my house as a shortcut.
Do not confuse fines with taxes, they are different in their nature. Also you are basically saying that every lawfull that has "can levy fines" in his ID, has the right to ask money from every trader ( or any vessel for that matter) that goes through their zoi. So he has the right to pirate them, to get straight to the point. That is absurd.
Pretty much this. "Fining" neutral ships simply for passing through Sigma-13 is no more possible for GMG than it is for BPA to sit at the Cambridge gate, stop a Gateway transport and then "fine" them for passing through.
If there is no wrongdoing, it isn't a fine, it's piracy.
Edit: Honestly, I fail to see the point of this discussion. The ID rules are pretty obvious here, as are the precedents. It has never been okay for lawful IDs to randomly demand credits from traders that aren't breaking their laws.
(12-30-2014, 10:01 PM)Deeceem Wrote: Huh, I always forget that GMG has its own space for some reason, my bad. So they should technically be able to enforce their laws in their space. However, the GMG laws say the following about fines:
Quote:3. Fines
3.1 GMG pilots have the option to fine transgressors, confiscate illegal cargo, or both depending on the situation. Your fine will depend on your ship class and the cargo you carry:
Fighters and Bombers will be fined 1,000,000 credits.
Freighters will be fined 1,500,000 credits.
Gunboats and Gunships will be fined 2,000,000 credits.
Transports will be fined between 3,000,000 and 5,000,000 credits.
GMG pilots may add to or subtract from these listed fines if they find it necessary to do so.
3.2 Refusal to cooperate with GMG pilots will immediately mark you as a hostile target and you will be executed at the discretion of the GMG pilot.
3.3 If you successfully resist arrest or refuse to pay a fine, your name will be added to GMG bounty board at the discretion of the GMG pilot.
Since there is nothing about fining people for simply traversing their territory, I'd stick with "No, except Kruger and Samura vessels."
Those are the laws of one group the GMG| to be exact wich are very well within the ID but the other groups might disagree they have a diferent view on the RP and have diference position while staying within the boundaries of the ID.
You can not force one group to obey someone else RP if they dont whant it to while they are within the GMG ID
I don't want to force anyone. I'm merely pointing out that the official laws by the official faction don't say: "Demand money from people, who traverse the Sigmas for no real reason." And because they do not say that by doing so is unlawful and against the GMG ID - Tunicle
And the genral issue here seems to be how people define "levy fines" - does that mean only if an actual offense was done as carrying contraband or shooting at GMG ships? Or does "levy fines" mean I can charge money for a made up reason and call it tax or toll? Fines are fairly similarly defined worldwide and imply a penalty for breaking a law or rule - Tunicle
So people should probably first decide what "levy fines" exactly means and the problem should solve itself.
(12-30-2014, 09:55 PM)Hauler Wrote: Who said i'm upset i'm just having a diferent opinion the subject of this discusion is well under the ID and rule boundaries as owners of Sigma 13 can do what they whant within their space *aslong as they are within their ID and rules* i'm not saying they can simply engage and pirate anyone threating them with guns if they dont pay cause GMG are not pirates what i'm saying they can make laws rules and decide what is good for them and others and what is not in their own souveren teritory and that is all Sigmas and Okinawa.
Clearly you are either not getting or simply ignoring the fact that the GMG ID ( nor the GMG laws concerning fines as Deeceem posted) does not specify anything about charging/taxing traders/vessels for passage through the Sigmas. So I'll just leave it at that.
GMG ID dose not have to say to you to tax someone for trading thrue your teritory. If it says it is *your* teritory than you can decide with the teritory as you please aslong as you are within the ID wich means diferent groups have diferent RP stands and yet they have the same ID the best example is IMG| and [HH] while IMG| is playing more peaceful covert RP [HH] is more agresive and quasilawful.
Also dont mix taxing because someone is using your teritory and lanes with clear open piracy from real pirates.
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(12-30-2014, 10:09 PM)Karst Wrote: Pretty much this. "Fining" neutral ships simply for passing through Sigma-13 is no more possible for GMG than it is for BPA to sit at the Cambridge gate, stop a Gateway transport and then "fine" them for passing through.
If there is no wrongdoing, it isn't a fine, it's piracy.
Then i think i need to write some reports about LPI giving me a speeding ticket. Even RFP did give me recently a ticket for having dirty windows. GMG is not a corrupt police force, have you checked the laws of Liberty and Rheinland? Police can get away with a lot as long as sensible RP. - Tunicle.
Also i wonder with the involvement of pob's. Why? PoB's no not even link to question posed. Even if they did and were wrong there is an old saying two wrongs do not make a right, Justifying your actions on wrongdoings of others is not really viable - Tunicle There are goldern coin and a lot of other bases in the past who forced you to pay to enter a system they 'claim' or owned. If you now state that a owner of a system is not allowed to ask for tax to passing trough. I assume I may fill in reports about factions as TAZ? Who blocked a entire jumphole to enter their home? The zoners of Omicron 74? And IMG for omega 7? Sorry, but that is the same with provoking a pirate act then. At least how YOU claim it.
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ID under question
Pilot carrying this lawful ID is an employee of Gas Miners Guild, who:
* - Can demand contraband and levy fines within their Zone of Influence, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
* - Can attack any ship in self-defense, to protect an allied or neutral lawful ship, or in defense of a base of the same affiliation, both within and outside of their Zone of Influence.
* - Can attack ships belonging to houses or organisations considered hostile by the GMG within their Zone of Influence.
* - Can engage in piracy against Samura and Kruger in the Sigmas only.
* - Cannot ally with any unlawfuls except for Golden Chrysanthemums and Blood Dragons.
* - Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above.
That's one tricky line,intended or not?One can only fine the answear in a sanction thread XD
Not sure why this is tricky or why a sanction is somehow more definitive than the rules - Tunicle
Quote:Can a GMG pilot ask for money to traverse Sigma 13 from a neutral/friendly faction?
Reasoned points only, mature approach please.
Sure they can,their land ,their rules.. I ,for one, i would love ,if all House will do same(only police id)
-Other houses:Wars are expensive,duh..so why not squeeze a little from your citizens or those who you trade with in order to offer them protection?It's only reasonable.. Reasonable tends to be justified by what you want. In this case the action is not covered by the laws in place, whether you think it is reasonable or not- Tunicle
-GMG:It's time to be greedy,you're the sparks that keeps the wars lights on,take advantage of that!!
So..they can, Within current state of play? - Tunicle but should they?Well..that's up to you!(whether if the rp will be decided by the players or admins will see)
The house can turn a blind eye and submit to their new 'laws' The lawmakers do not need to turn a blind eye, they can suggest what they want, and live by the consequences - Tunicle or they can 'conquer'(for the lack of a better word)them which would be the spark(pun intended) we need to increase the activity ;hopefully the 88 will find the answear of how their system will be shared between the 4 houses
People want to believe that God has a plan for them.
They don't wanna believe that anyone else does..
GMG is a lawful faction by design.
GMG has never been meant to be a lawful pirate faction.
About the ID:
Quote:* - Can demand contraband and levy fines within their Zone of Influence, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
GMG owns S13 and has laws. They can enforce these laws. The "levy fines" is meant to be able to punish people who break laws. It is not meant to "tax" people for crossing S13. Taxing people for being in a place is a typical piracy action. And GMG is not a piracy faction. Clear and justified rationale - Tunicle
If you allow the like "levy fines" to be used like that, you make GMG the prime lawful piracy faction in Sigmas. Then GMG takes the place of shady, semi-lawful factions like Junkers that are meant to pirate there.
What the guys get wrong (and also have got wrong on their other alts This bit is not needed whilst it may or may not be a factor it detracts from the proximate point at hand. - Tunicle) is this: Every demand for money is rulewise piracy. It does not matter whether you "tax", "ask for donation" or "ask nicely". These GMG indies have been very clear that they would kill if you do not pay or turn around. This -IS- piracy. And GMG does not pirate (except the factions named in their ID).
This "taxing without reason" collides harshly with "* - Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above." Point clearly made - Tunicle
All those two GMG indies try to do is to exploit a loophole Only a loophole if using a very non-standard definition of a fine in the ID to abuse a strictly lawful ID as a piracy ID, which it was never meant to be and which GMG does not want to be.
Jack
P.S: And: the guys who came up with this "idea" are hurt DHC miners who want to get back at [HH], who fly IMG ID. As I told them I cannot do anything from stopping [HH] from pirating DHC (bc FR2 does not work if they stay inside their ID), they invented a way of using the same principle (GMG| can't tell them not to pirate). That's the root of it. GG.
The small size indicates you know this isn't really helpful. It gets things off your chest but muddies the water. If admins stepped in a asked this to stop we all know the outrage that would cause. It may be frustrating and time consuming but use the tools provided, mitigates all the bias, favouritism muck slung around the community. The last bastion of FL lets try and maintain it a a model community not a hate one - Tunicle
(12-30-2014, 10:13 PM)Hauler Wrote: GMG ID dose not have to say to you to tax someone for trading thrue your teritory. If it says it is *your* teritory than you can decide with the teritory as you please aslong as you are within the ID wich means diferent groups have diferent RP stands and yet they have the same ID the best example is IMG| and [HH] while IMG| is playing more peaceful covert RP [HH] is more agresive and quasilawful.
Also dont mix taxing because someone is usling your teritory and lanes with clear open piracy from real pirates.
Poor example. HH engage in actual piracy as permitted by their ID (can engage in piracy against Daumann, Kruger, BMM and GMS in the Taus and Omegas). GMG can also do so (can engage in piracy against Samura and Kruger in the Sigmas).
But they most certainly cannot pirate random other factions and call it a fine.
(12-30-2014, 10:14 PM)Emile Wrote: Then i think i need to write some reports about LPI giving me a speeding ticket. Even RFP did give me recently a ticket for having dirty windows.
Those honestly aren't covered by the rules either. Issuing fines is done when laws are broken. Otherwise, I could just make a police cruiser, sit at a gate and tell every trader "ten mil or die" with some BS reason attached.
An LPi that demands 200k after legitimate RP probably won't get sanctioned, but if people start using the "levy fines" line as a blatant excuse to openly pirate, it will certainly not go well.
Still keeping on topic and non-personal adding to specific points brought up - Tunicle