Quote:Those honestly aren't covered by the rules either. Issuing fines is done when laws are broken. Otherwise, I could just make a police cruiser, sit at a gate and tell every trader "ten mil or die" with some BS reason attached.
An LPi that demands 200k after legitimate RP probably won't get sanctioned, but if people start using the "levy fines" line as a blatant excuse to openly pirate, it will certainly not go well.
Karst has it in all his posts.
Following dilutes the thread and turns into personalities rather than the specific point. That level of recourse has other avenues. Not perfect but best we currently have - Tunicle
The fine was 6 million, issued by 2 GMG bombers, to an IMG (neutralish-friendly to GMG) who did not carry ore. The alternative was: die. That much for "small fines" and "it's not piracy!"
Here, a little extract, so people know what we are discussing here:
Quote:[30.12.2014 18:31:45] YYYYYY: Hello IMG|Blue.Berry[R], put your engines on hold. You are in GMG territory now await further orders. Don't make me use gunfire!
[30.12.2014 18:32:14] XXXXXX: Hello there
[30.12.2014 18:32:21] IMG|Blue.Berry[R]: Roger: greets GMG pilot
[30.12.2014 18:32:22] YYYYYY: You have to pay me 6 millions or turn around and head back to where you came from.
[30.12.2014 18:32:45] XXXXXX: We are curently charging people who fly thrue our teritory
[30.12.2014 18:32:45] YYYYYY: you have to pay our tax to use our nice superhighway.
PS.: And... intersting to see who the GMG guys were.
(12-30-2014, 10:36 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: P.S: And: the guys who came up with this "idea" are hurt DHC miners who want to get back at [HH], who fly IMG ID. As I told them I cannot do anything from stopping [HH] from pirating DHC (bc FR2 does not work if they stay inside their ID), they invented a way of using the same principle (GMG| can't tell them not to pirate). That's the root of it. GG.
Good to know where this started and by whom. No this came from an independent violation submission which happened to arrive when I was in game - Tunicle
Back to GMG id. Its like you say a way of playing a faction, there is nothing wrong with this. I think equating fine to = toll is wrong and participating in unlawful activity contrary to system rules is wrong, or as I said in game dodgy - Tunicle But what i see the ZOI of GMG is very limited. Basically Sigma's only, something that would make sense. Their home, their rules, the same in every house. I remember that people did say on the forums here that GMG was a littlebit like a mini house? So i see no reason why this would now suddenly be a problem? Or is it what jack just adressed? Traders who got targetted, did pay that tol for passage and flew trough the system? Or went back? Only thing i see is a additional and positive change of RP and interaction. Something fun even and refreshing new, why would this be changed? To promote less interaction with traders? Or that people can just have even less interactions? Sure we all did QQ about bases and people asking for money to go trough a jumphole or what they tried to protect/block because inRP they own those parts. But the positive parts it brought people to do more RP and they had to if they wanted to take the time to at least apply for it and get that save. Pasage or what you wanted.
If GMG laws stipulated paying a toll was mandatory then not paying a toll could result in a situation where you could act within your id and fine if toll not paid - Tunicle
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Quote:Those honestly aren't covered by the rules either. Issuing fines is done when laws are broken. Otherwise, I could just make a police cruiser, sit at a gate and tell every trader "ten mil or die" with some BS reason attached.
An LPi that demands 200k after legitimate RP probably won't get sanctioned, but if people start using the "levy fines" line as a blatant excuse to openly pirate, it will certainly not go well.
Karst has it in all his posts.
The fine was 6 million, issued by 2 GMG bombers, to an IMG (neutralish-friendly to GMG) who did not carry ore. The alternative was: die. That much for "small fines" and "it's not piracy!"
Here, a little extract, so people know what we are discussing here:
Quote:[30.12.2014 18:31:45] YYYYYY: Hello IMG|Blue.Berry[R], put your engines on hold. You are in GMG territory now await further orders. Don't make me use gunfire!
[30.12.2014 18:32:14] XXXXXX: Hello there
[30.12.2014 18:32:21] IMG|Blue.Berry[R]: Roger: greets GMG pilot
[30.12.2014 18:32:22] YYYYYY: You have to pay me 6 millions or turn around and head back to where you came from.
[30.12.2014 18:32:45] XXXXXX: We are curently charging people who fly thrue our teritory
[30.12.2014 18:32:45] YYYYYY: you have to pay our tax to use our nice superhighway.
PS.: And... intersting to see who the GMG guys were.
Who ever is who or what does it change anything we are discusing the ID's here
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(12-30-2014, 08:56 PM)Tunicle Wrote: Pilot carrying this lawful ID is an employee of Gas Miners Guild, who:
* - Can demand contraband and levy fines within their Zone of Influence, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
* - Can attack any ship in self-defense, to protect an allied or neutral lawful ship, or in defense of a base of the same affiliation, both within and outside of their Zone of Influence.
* - Can attack ships belonging to houses or organisations considered hostile by the GMG within their Zone of Influence.
* - Can engage in piracy against Samura and Kruger in the Sigmas only.
* - Cannot ally with any unlawfuls except for Golden Chrysanthemums and Blood Dragons.
* - Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above.
Ifthe "can demand contraband and levy fines" partdescribes one action, namely that you can only levy fines in case of contraband possession, thenifsaid ship, regardless of alignment and diplomatic relation,carriescommodities consideredcontrabandby the GMG, as GMG youcanask for money for traversion in Sigma-13.Ifitcarries no contraband, youcannot.
Ifthe "can demand contraband and levy fines" partdescribes two actions, namely that you can levy fines in your ZoI at all times regardless of contraband posession, theniftraversion in Sigma-13 prior to toll/tax paymentisconsideredillegalWhich it is not so, what ifs do not apply - Tunicleby GMG, as GMG youcanask for money for traversion in Sigma-13, as a fine for not paying toll/tax beforehand.Ifthereis no such toll/tax, youcannot.
Conclusion: It should be worded better to specifiy which of the above interpretations is in practice.
Now, off to read all the other comments besides the OP...
Edited to fix some stuff...
Another edit for clarification:
In this case the GMG legal codex does not include any tolls/taxes in regards of traversing Sigma-13, neither would "asking money for traversing" involve any contraband, else it would been worded like "asking money because of contraband", thus while the bolded line in the ID is still barely ambigious, the answer to this situation is a clearNo. You cannot ask for money as GMG for simply traversing Sigma-13.
From the server rules:
"Faction Right 1. Official player factions are free to restrict or not restrict access to their guard systems and tax, fine, or destroy any non-allied ships which enters the system[...]"
See how the word "tax" is explicit written here? So 'tax' and 'fine' are not the same thing in the server rules. And see how it talks about "Official" factions? So indies cannot tax anyone just for passing by. Official GMG could do that if they choose so, but they did not as their set of laws shows.
A fine is a consequence of a criminal act. Fining someone for just being in a public place is simply extortion. That's unlawful, and covered by the last line of the ID.
Definition of a 'fine' (from Google):
"a sum of money exacted as a penalty by a court of law or other authority."
Definition of a 'penalty' (again, from uncle Google):
"a punishment imposed for breaking a law, rule, or contract."
Now then, according to the GMG law codex (created by the official faction), traversing the Sigmas is not a crime. Therefore you cannot 'fine' someone for doing so as a GMG pilot.
Therefore, if you where to make someone pay a sum of money for simply traversing the sigmas you would not be doing so lawfully, therefore you are committing an unlawful act. In other words, your actions amount to piracy in the eyes of the server rules - which is not allowed by the ID except against "Samura and Kruger in the Sigmas only". We know that any other acts of piracy are not allowed because the ID states that GMG pilots "Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above".
In conclusion the answer to the question "Can a GMG pilot ask for money to traverse Sigma 13 from a neutral/friendly faction?" is:
No, not unless you consider Kruger or Samura to be a 'neutral/friendly' faction (in which case Kruger and Samura may indeed be asked to pay a fine). Or another 'neutral/friendly' faction is breaking the laws of the GMG.
(12-30-2014, 08:56 PM)Tunicle Wrote: As admins are in a no win situation and often faced with unjustified hate lets see if community discussion adds anything.
This is not a trail by forum and will end if the community are not mature enough to enter within the spirit of the experiment.
Players are aware of my feelings on this so it is not devolving admin decision, just as the title says, an experiment.
ID under question
Pilot carrying this lawful ID is an employee of Gas Miners Guild, who:
* - Can demand contraband and levy fines within their Zone of Influence, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
* - Can attack any ship in self-defense, to protect an allied or neutral lawful ship, or in defense of a base of the same affiliation, both within and outside of their Zone of Influence.
* - Can attack ships belonging to houses or organisations considered hostile by the GMG within their Zone of Influence.
* - Can engage in piracy against Samura and Kruger in the Sigmas only.
* - Cannot ally with any unlawfuls except for Golden Chrysanthemums and Blood Dragons.
* - Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above.
Can a GMG pilot ask for money to traverse Sigma 13 from a neutral/friendly faction?
Reasoned points only, mature approach please.
[off-topic] So that is why GMG are always very "kill on sight" when they find my Hogosha wandering around. They can't pirate it, and don't have laws for applying fines to "unwelcome guests".[/off-topic]
In a short answer, I would say no.
In a long answer, unless GMG| establish a toll requirement for all and any neutral ship that passes by their territory, and make the refusal of paying that toll a criminal offense, then they can't enforce that toll.
No ID allows credit demand outside of [piracy demands] or [law enforcement regulations]. As GMG is a lawful ID, that credit demand has to be within the laws that they can enforce, or within the limited piracy line they have.
P.S. Tunicle ID quote has a typo on the 3rd line, word "organizations". Nope, feel free to Google - Duly noted, thank you for the tip.
Remember when BAF used to "tax" trade ships going from Leeds into Tau-31? Nobody was really crying foul on Bretonia for the Tau Licenses, so how.exactly would it be different if GMG did it? Call it a Sigma License, if you don't like the word taxes
I agree with GMG being able to levy charges against any ship that passes through Sigma 13, it is after all the GMG home system and they did go to war with Rheinland for it. They have that right but currently it is not exercised by the laws in place for that system, so invoking that right is currently illegal and not within ID - Tunicle
The GMG are pseudo para military force funded entirely through their sale of H Fuel which they supply to all of Sirius so they in fact have no one to fear. No one would dare question their attempts of levying charges against ships moving through Sig 13 since if they did they could in theory have their fuel supplies cut off.
Well if they did it could lead into an 80 Years war part deux, when another side gets sick of GMG dominance.
Could open up some new RP windows for the GMG which have until now run dry....