Agreed, Teerin. The community will recover from this. This is nothing like what happened back in the Virus ban days (anyone else remember that)?
Disco will survive, and possibly be healthier for this. There's some learning to be done here. A bit less exploitation, a bit more collaborating with each other, a bit less rumor spreading. I've been mostly sitting this one out and working on other projects - like Teerin, I'd advise other people who are emotionally invested to step away, and build a virtual sandwich elsewhere.
Good luck everyone, and good health.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
it's incredibly stupid that someone unrelated to the bans got to see everything while the people sanctioned are still waiting, and the staff deserves to be called out for it
(07-03-2016, 05:55 PM)Yber Wrote: it's incredibly stupid that someone unrelated to the bans got to see everything while the people sanctioned are still waiting, and the staff deserves to be called out for it
I specifically stated that I had not seen "everything"
Also, I did not say that those people I asked were Administrators.
it's incredibly stupid that someone unrelated to the bans got to see everything while the people sanctioned are still waiting, and the staff deserves to be called out for it
Alack, I grovel before you oh important, indispensable community member, accretor of the blue messages, the most Xtreme of the Sirian realms, master of alphabetical economy, rattler of sabres. Asking who I am? My God sir, you have me by the ears. Certainly, you served to remind me of my station. I'll merely run off back to my humble vocation of being a role-play intensive, none-game-exploitative peasant, milord, lest you demand my identity again. What would you like first, my Facebook, Twitter, my phone number? In short, you can see my username, dude, srs. Use Dunc- or Achille if you really want to. Don't be angry and edgy since it isn't helping anyone. We all have sanctioned friends, mate. We all want to see this resolved placably. Your post, however, doesn't placate anyone. It's merely plaque: sticky, attractive only to infestations, and prone to reducing the most pearly white of threads to a quagmire of bullcrappery. In short: don't. Marvelously stress-unintensive, isn't it?
Anyway, Yber, for all we know they could be making efforts towards providing sufficient reasoning to the players involved. We are not in the loop, and thus shouldn't shoot up the place. Teerin is, so it's probably good to trust his word on this.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
Posts: 1,880
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Staff roles: Systems Lead Server Administrator
Thanks @Teerin for the post. I pretty much agree wholeheartedly - there are mistakes all around the board around this, but that will tend to happen - this was a very decisive and very controversial decision, and would have been even without the specific concerns raised around this. There are definite methods of resolution here, and I think probation is certainly one that's very effective. Regardless of the method, any amount of evidence available should, as soon as possible, be given to the affected persons and their faction leaders or representatives. The community is not aided in any way by maneuvering around the rules of traditional sanctions, and thus the traditional protections and rights afforded to these community members should be granted where possible and necessary.
Once everything has calmed down and we have a revised decision (or another admin statement saying otherwise), as @Garrett Jax has primary led the charge on, I'd like to see proper rulings on the existence or lack thereof of Rule 1.0, the "clean slate" clause, and eventually some form of collection of prior greentexts that are still held as official. Unfortunately, a simple "some green text may no longer apply" clause is far too vague for any serious form of administration, and an amount of transparency (despite the buzzwordiness of this term in recent months) is necessary for the community to ensure we're all up to speed on the state of the community and how the new rules affect all of us going forward.
Well, I actually didn't wanted to get into the argument about that, as I was getting into many arguments before with little to no reactions on what people say in the end by those who make decisions around the place, but at that point, when all the undertable crap finally began to be not_really_undertable, I'd like to add my 2 cents.
I've been a member here for a long period of time so i can draw some lines through the timeline of server lifespan since very begis of 4.85 with it's mass popularity rise. The issue with bans was always a problem for the server, it's not today's effort so to say. Many fruitful and resourceful members were banned through the whole life of the project with, as I can see it, little to no attempt to actually fix the problem.
The usual 'fix' to problem all the time is a ban for a 'problematic' member as he's seen by the certain people. Not usually the admin team, but maybe those who can put their word to them with some weight assigned. But that is defenetely not a fix at all. This is just an escape from actually working on the problem to dig at it's roots. So let me throw some separated points on how I see this:
1. First, we've got a very big lack of proper community leadership pillars. What I say is that not many have a courtesy and will to attact people with their ideas and views, and then lead them into selected direction. It was not a problem when there was a lot of members who understood RP and PVP and all the basic 'idea' behind the server, how it must be ran. Rules were not necessery as those people were leading their part of the crews into intuitively right direction. I hope you understand what I mean, it's not en easy job for such gents. I can even name a couple from who you can draw an example picture such as Jihad Joe, Malexa, Gentle - hell, I would even say Zelot, and others - you know, I can have a personal feelings about people, like them of not, but I must give a credit to them for what they've done in the past.
But those people began to vanish, this is natural process. When they were around banning some member wasn't a problem of this scale as usually people understud, more or less, what that was made for, as those 'right' pillars were still pointing at the 'right' direction to which the community cound go. But with no guiding 'light' there began to arrrive 'new' people. I don't want to say that their vision is 'wrong', it's just different. They have the will and courtesy to lead people, and want to do so. This is normal that they start to gather players around themselves, and around their ideas. That actually happen, also, because the problem of 'elitism' began to strike community in the past. Instead of taking those new, motivated, members to the proper factions many of them were left on their own, rejected for being too new, or too radical.
But that wasn't correctly done and well-through decision as you can't ban a man from having a vision and building it on his own. Those members gathered other new members around themselves, around their new ideas. They were not taken into the 'old system' and af cause began to build their new one. That is how community changed through the years. New factions survivied, old faction began to fall apart.
Setting a 'standart of gameplay' here is totally in hands of the community itself, and most importantly, in hands of those who lead factions and groups. Banning those new people with new vision is just a pointless effort as, first of all, they have a vision of their own at which they are totally right in their actions. What is the most destructive as they are actual future 'pillars' themselves building a crew around them, people who feel their vision and accept it as correct instance of gameplay nature. If you ban one you not just remove the 'problem', you actually don't, you also provoke those behind them to more negativity, making them to feel rejected. That is of cause not true as we, as community, must make our priority to adapt everyone willing to play to that process.
So this is the problem. The magnitude of exactly today's case can be easely described: Those people you managed to ban were already a well-known players with some part of playerbase around them, going together with their views and actions. They were not 'new' so you simply made a hit not only on few people, but on a good share of playerbase as well. Problem is that, maybe administration team have it's own view of cause, at which those people are wrong - but none of that team are actively promoting their view, ideas and principles to the players, players are not aware of those standarts some members of the admin team might held. So this is what happen when you're not actively working with community while trying to hide behind procedures and secret discussions - in that time the server just lives it's own life. It's normal.
2. Second, what can be done? Right now, I'd say, it must be a step forward. The meanaing of that step is to remove the devision between many groups, new once and old once. That's not an easy task - but how I see it, and how I'd do it, is to unban every single banned member. This isn't some sort of desaster as people might look at that questionable move, but it's a step foward - we need to speak to each others, not just throw bans around and form safe bubbles around ourselves. This is not prouductive and is really a destructive environment for the integrity of the communuity. The TS is correct at that point and it is really a valid course of actions.
3. The 'Admin Team', as a whole, at that point have a problem as well. It doesn't have a 'face' of it's own. I mean, it's just are a bunch of people most don't even know - it's just a black matter. Back to Igiss or Cannon 'era' the leading body of this community had a face. That 'face' was able to make decisions, was not shy to openly participate in discussions on forum, was able to take direct resposability for admin actions and stand for them. Now it's another story which is also placing too much shadow, and thus, nagativity into community. There must be a face that people can follow, can blame of cause, can talk with. It must be strong one, and must be representing one of those 'pillars' as people must see that man\woman as an ultimate example for themselves.
I'd say more but it would be already too much offtopic. You know, what I want to say is that it's not some sort of a 'new' problem. It's the wounds that never were treated at all finally began to give too much discomfort. Do or die.
I often find myself disagreeing with your posts, @Teerin, but your stance on the whole matter is probably even more valid than my own. My only concern is that I still feel that it's come too late, and that irreparable damage to the trust of many people (not just myself) has already been done.
One way or another, out of all the (often preachy, holier-than-thou, and otherwise condescending) posts that have tried to provide a middle-of-the-road approach towards things, yours is about the only one I can agree with almost wholeheartedly, and the only one written in a manner that doesn't make me want to throw up. @Curios has some very valid and pertinent observations in his post, too, which I think bear mentioning at least a couple more times.