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+--- Thread: Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... (/showthread.php?tid=14677)
Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... - Jihadjoe - 12-26-2008
' Wrote:Thank you all for your answers firstly, getting some direct answers is always nice.
Overkill is an issue alright but what I would simply suggest is to meet fire with fire. Every action is met with an equal and opposite reaction.
It is often hard for people to get organised enough. I don't see how a small group who fly only fighters (a small group of people playing nomads for example in the public nomad LF) could possibly match the firepower of a single battlecruiser of battleship.
Their roleplay would be destroyed by one individual in a large ship choosing to stomp on them. We all know how frustrating it is to be attempting to roleplay with some individual only for a third party to come along and blow you up.
It may be perfectly within roleplay for that person to do so, but it is also utterly inconsiderate. I hope that my way of doing things will instill this respect.
' Wrote:While it isn't the most efficient solution, it reduces flames in regards to restrictions and does solve this faction/independant issue. However flames between players will increase as more conflict will occur.
After all, having a few bombers coming after capital ships is always fun.
As to the beginning of this comment, flames are not my concern and aside from an initial kneejerk regarding it, there have been no flames to speak of. I encourage discussion such as this, as it is fruitful and productive.
As to the end of this comment I'm usure as to what you're getting at.
' Wrote:Meet the capital ships with your own firepower.
And if that firepower doesn't exist? Surely it's the responsibility of the people who are in possesion of the superiour firepower to ensure the fun of people on both sides, by using said ships carefully.
Liberty has a lot of very good caps. It is one of three factions to have two battleships. both of which are rather good. It has two cruisers, the lib cruiser is an excellent ship in the right hands, and a very very good gunboat.
The rogues have a destroyer that within roleplay they should use sparingly, and a good gunboat. The Xenos have no such firepower and the Hackers have an inferiour battleship and a gunboat that is rather lacking.
It's the responsibiluity of everyone who plays in liberty that the lawful and unlawful are able to play the game in an enjoyable way. I'd hate to see the liberty unlawfuls die a death due to not being able to operate, as that would give the lawfuls nothing to do. We have to look after each other's gameplay, and simply upping the ante by matching the firepower doesn't do that. It creates mindless competition and brainless pvpwhoring. Which is something we all want to avoid.
Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... - bluntpencil2001 - 12-26-2008
I do like Joe's approach.
He has seen an ooRP problem and discussed it ooRP, not imposing any hefty restrictions, but reasonably asking people to promise to keep things somewhat fair.
It seems to work, too, although I still run in fear from missile boats, which, to me, actually makes perfect sense.
Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... - Eppy - 12-26-2008
I want to know how asking somebody to read and abide by a page of basic truths is taking a Guilty Until Proven Innocent approach. We're not telling them how to make their characters, we're telling them a pretty short list of things they shouldn't do, namely harvest Nomads, run off and start a war, throw themselves up against the wall of death that is New York, employ massive overkill to get their kill messages, and impose their own structure upon the factions and other independent players. We also introduce them to the forums, which, no, strictly speaking, are not essential to gameplay. However, considering a good portion of players only come here because they see 100+ people on every day, a unique thing in FL circles, and have no idea how to RP, and that a good portion of these don't figure out how we do things on this server, the forums are the best teaching tool for these individuals.
Cap registration does force compliance. It has to. It wouldn't work otherwise. But it's not like we go charging in with guns blazing, as the dissidents complain about and as I have repeatedly stated that this is what we do not do. We try to convince people, and most comply after a simple explanation. Very few times are there instances where we have to break out the guns and go hunt down a Destroyer who just won't adapt to the way things are. When we do, though, we do so with the support of the independents in the area (really, every time we have an issue like this the indies will go along with the factions and help remove the offender from the space we all share), and we'd very much like to do it legally, seeing as it does, in fact, work pretty dang well, and according to the poll the con-Faction-Regulation players are in the minority.
You know, Del, The Word of Xoria is not The Word of God. You'll note that Xoria is in the minority here, by almost two to one. I, personally, think that Xoria is quite wrong, for reasons I am bloody sick and tired of repeating, and am offended by his accusations.
Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... - kingvaillant - 12-26-2008
' Wrote:I do like Joe's approach.
He has seen an ooRP problem and discussed it ooRP, not imposing any hefty restrictions, but reasonably asking people to promise to keep things somewhat fair.
It seems to work, too, although I still run in fear from missile boats, which, to me, actually makes perfect sense.
I do believe the same (except the last sentence that I don't understand). Joe's approach is non-aggressive and mainly focusing on prioritizing respect between players. A good compromise I say, but it surely needs a lot of dedication, and opposition will always exist but will be easier to shove away.
Most issues is that sometimes a few faction leaders are approaching bad indies extremely aggressively... which gets to more flames instead of respect.
If you don't give respect, you won't receive any!
Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... - Reverend Del - 12-26-2008
In this instance Eppy, the way you speak and what you initially proposed are wrong, you say you don't shoot folks, but to even suggest you should is wrong, just because they don't sign something on the forums.
Capship registration is fine and dandy as a way of keeping tabs on folks, but if someone does not sign up to it, then they are one to watch, not one to shoot, unless they step woefully out of accepted fair practice. Now saying that capship abuse can only be controlled at the point of a gun, conform or die style, is in my opinion wrong. I'm not sure whether Joe's approach promises fire unless something goes wrong, I'm fairly certain it doesn't. Your suggestion says if they don't sign up and refuse to sign up then they die, Joe's seems to say if they step out of line from an OORP perspective then they get punished. I prefer Joe's approach as I see it, no problem until there's a problem. Your approach seems to make a problem before one is even there.
Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... - Blodo - 12-26-2008
I have been thinking about this for a fair while now: what do you do to prevent people in the same NPC faction as you (per admin allowance, factions like Phantoms or SCRA need not be concerned) from ruining fights and/or RP you are involved in?
Do you shoot them if they disobey your orders? No. Not only does that solve nothing, since it teaches the guy exactly nothing, it is also an offense on the Discovery server, one that will earn the shooter a nice, shiny sanction.
Do you try to prevent them from acquiring your ship's faction in the first place? No. There is no possible way of doing that without sitting on the server 24/7 in a force appropriate enough to take down the stragglers.
Do you try to get them to register on a list and make them promise that they will obey your orders? No. Morons won't comply with that and/or will just sign the list then go ahead doing whatever they were doing before. People who aren't morons will meanwhile be inconvenienced by the paperwork.
I suppose some of you may remember how I posted some time ago my theory about how a non tagged NPC faction player is regarded by the other people of the same NPC faction not by the rank that he can make up for himself, but by the respect that his presence commands. If he is respected by the others, then they will respect his RPed rank as well. If he acts like an irresponsible idiot, then he will command no respect.
So what then do we do about people who we tried to help fit into the community time and again, but they just refuse to comply? Those who simply can't take the hint to improve and who to top it all off rule lawyer their way out of sanctions? We leave them alone. When they need us in a fight, we don't come. When we find that the battles they bring to us are pointless, we don't fight them. When they want to drag us out to go kill someone.. whoever for the sake of killing, we don't come. If we have less respect for them than for our enemies, we let our enemies sort the deal. If all else fails, passive vigilantism seems the be the way onward.
Aside from my rather cynical attempts to answer the question of "what if all else fails..." above, I do find myself agreeing with Xoria despite my initial concerns over the admins involving themselves in faction restrictions all of a sudden. You can't try to apply force on the internet, it simply does not work that way. Now, the way I have been taught, if an approach does not seem to be working, you need to try something new. Like psychology...
Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... - Snapp - 12-26-2008
Quote:We assume they haven't seen the forums and hence the cap register, hence the whole 'Politely Asking' phases of cap registration. If they already know how to RP on Disco, great! They make a two sentence post and keep right on going.
This is my point exactly, you ASSUME they havent seen the forums or registered, and maybe they havent, and dont care to. Maybe they simply can't because they are on a dial-up connection and it takes them 30 minutes just to load the first page but they can play in-game without much lag. If they already know how to play and rp in-game then why would they need to post anything unless they choose to?
My question is why do you think forum participation should be a requirement to play the game? If forum participation is a requirement to "play" then why dont we just go ahead and put a password on the server and make people register on the forum to get it? Not gonna happen, nor is it needed.
Starting to sound to me like some would rather everyone play Forumlancer instead of Freelancer imo.
Quote:We don't stop them from getting the ship unless they blatantly refuse to register. We are not out to blow them up. We are not evil tyrants bent on oppressing the indies.
No, maybe factions are not "bent on oppressing the indies", they only oppress and harass people when they dont do as you tell and expect them to.
In my opinion even mentioning a "ship registration" in-game is ooRP because if your in the same faction iff/id then INRP you should already know thier ship is registered, correct? When a real life police officer pulls up to the scene and another officer is already there do you see them bickering about if the other is a real officer? NO! Do they start shooting at eachother under ANY circumstances? NO!
Quote:If we see a ship that hasn't been registered, we politely ask. Then we politely ask again.
Yet again, because they "arent on the list" you start "politely asking" until it turns into a "shooting gallery" if they dont bow to your will. No im not meaning this directly at you or the outcasts Eppy, certain corsair factions have done the same thing time and time again and now have what like 3-4 different threads to "register" in? *sigh*
Quote:Refusing to register is a needless rebellion.
Making people register "or suck vaccuum if you dont" is a needless grab at control which is just an illusion anyways.
Quote:So, you're telling me I should do the thing I most want to avoid, namely, include only people whose RP I feel is substandard? You know what I think that would do? Make them angry at me, the 101st, factions in general, and players who have not been mentioned. Why should we single out people and try and help them when we could simply give them a way to help themselves without shaming them?
I see your point here and yes it would single "some" people out, rather than "everyone" who isnt on the registration. Some players blindly use the current registrations as justification to pvp and bully people who belong to the same npc faction simply because they arent on the list.
Secondly it's not up to you or anyone else to decide who's "RP" is or isnt up to par, if they have mismatching id's/ships/reputations ect ect then yes throw them on the list and or report them, but not just because they dont fit your ideals of what is "good rp". See what i mean, allready looking at how you can use the "alternate list" in an abusive way.
Quote:unless, of course, you want me to single out people and make them feel like failures at a game, a place where they come to have fun.
Exactly, they want to have fun and play the "game", not everyone wants to visit and register on the forums unless the willingly choose to do so of thier own accord. NOT by bullying which is what politely suggesting turns into when they dont do what is suggested.
EDIT: Very good points and ideas Blodo, your thinking outside the confines of the edges of your screen. kudos.
Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... - n00bl3t - 12-27-2008
' Wrote:Ooh! I'm going to PvP whore you! Aww. Poor n00bl3t. The ESS destroyer isn't registered and nobody does a damn thing about it because it doesn't fly. I have NEVER seen this ship, none of my pilots have reported doing so, and I doubt I ever will.
Actually, the statement was meant as I have not gone cap-whoring.
Well, Eppy, you are never online.
Oh, and if you have never heard about it, it is due to ignorance on your part, since I remember one of your members saying all that he knew of me was that I was the destroyer in the massive "mexican standoff with the [101st]" and how long that incident went on for. I found that to be a point of hilarity. (My Destroyer verses a dreadnought, a destroyer, GB's and 4 bombers.)
Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... - triple88a - 01-12-2009
' Wrote:Really, the order should be 90% fighters/bombers, 10% caps
It would be nice to see all fighters be able to take lvl 10 guns. This way you can actually have some fun in a fighter. Obviously what will limit your weapons is the amount of energy ur ship can generate. If you can power couple thor's in a light fighter.. do it but how many can u shoot before u go empty?.. etc This will rebalance a lot of ships in the game. More people will use fighters vs bombers too.
Faction Control of Capital Ships... or... - kingvaillant - 01-12-2009
Please, let this tread fade into darkness before it gets back to life and begins to spray flames