+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery General (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Discovery RP 24/7 General Discussions (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=23)
+--- Thread: Note on The Order policies (/showthread.php?tid=14678)
Note on The Order policies - Nevearo - 12-25-2008
' Wrote:...Tenacity, Over the last 2 weeks, I have come to respect ryoken's opinion over yours. I know I am a bad judge, but the reasons for it are the level of personal attacks. I personally feel you should reduce your personal attacks. The post before this one had others in it as well. (Edit: Example="Oh, and using big words is only going to dissuade") A good Forum RP doesn't justify these, and this is exactly what I was getting from Ryoken's statements. Good Forum RP doesn't always equal civil behavior, or good server RP. likewise, some people couldn't write themselves out of a paper bag, and yet are perfectly good RPing. Should personal opinions over what is more important, or how much someone is liked, determine who gets what? That seems like ryoken's point. How is making that point an embarrassment? Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of a council of 20 or so determining cap ships. I feel such a large body will likely be able to debate amongst themselves the personal merits of each application, but the popularity issue and less-known issue does exist, especially in small numbers for the ruling body.
Do yourself a favor ryoken, quit embarassing yourself while you're still slightly respected here.
' Wrote:But what is especially revealing here is that when the suggestion that player faction control over ship sales to properly affiliated members of those npc factions may be removed, the response is "what's the point of paying to become an official faction then?" This necessarily implies that the most important and valuable privilege of official factions is placing restrictions on non-members of those player factions. If that is the view of people pursuing official faction status, then I think that demonstrates the inadvisability of granting them such power. It also completely ignores the numerous official factions which do not own systems and do not wish to own systems. According to the implications of the question, they must all be nuts.I personally feel that the real question is if factions should be required to pay 500,000,000. Several people have stated here that it is chump change to them, others have stated that it is a large body of work for little gain, since almost everything that is done by a recognized faction can be done by a unrecognized faction. It isn't so much as a request to give factions powers over players, as a request to provide a benefit that justifies the cost. Reducing the costs of things works, as does providing additional benefits. 1 Billion credits is a lot, and taking away the ability for the people who made the investment of time in deciding how it gets used would stick in anyone's craw.
Note on The Order policies - Baltar - 12-25-2008
' Wrote:I totaly agree with Igiss on this on to be honest. And no offence Eppy. It was you that gave me this point of veiw on this. When you banned RoS from Omi 85. And also tried to claim Alpha as your own because you were the system owning faction. Its a game that we are all here to enjoy. And each of us should have the same rights to a fair and enjoyable time.
I agree Silent ... I paid actual $$$ for the rights to play Freelancer. Granted this mod adds to what Freelancer was ... but some group who wants to lord over everyone else's fun is too much. I don't mind encountering powerful player factions who own certain systems that they power traded for. What I do get annoyed with is when one of these groups takes things so personal that they make it their purpose in life to deny everyone else a chance to role play THEIR part on this server.
We've got a few bullies on Disco that like to dictate what everyone else is allowed to do. Factions (especially system owning factions) should be held to a higher standard than indies. Faction members are expected to set an example for role play. Having non-player faction members in leadership positions without some form of a tag to indicate they're official leaders within a faction is dead wrong ... and leaves an open whole for abuse.
' Wrote:Of course I banned RoS from 85, Chris, what did you expect? We almost got trampled by the NovaPG and you refused to back us up because you didn't want to hurt Tony's feelings, which to me speaks of a greater commitment to the Blood Dragons than the Outcasts and warranted some kind of reprisal. As for claiming Alpha, I was wrong. Okay? It's not mine, I just guard it. It's everybody's, I'm not making a claim to it. All I'm making a claim to is the system I paid for and was promised total sovereignty over. When a lolwutting arse or some grudge-holding scumbag runs into my system and buys the largest ship he can and sits above the base Nightfall tailor-made for our faction, taunting my pilots. I think I should have plenty jurisdiction to blow the SOB up. One man is ruining an entire faction's enjoyment, and I will NOT stand for it.
Eppy ... I've encountered you many times in game. There was an instance where your trader character threatened my pirate to reprisals from the RoS for pirating you in the California system (while carrying lawful goods obtained from a Liberty port). You threatened to bring all of the Outcasts against me. You even F1'd in front of me. Quite an OORP event I'd say ... seeing as your trader was not affiliated with Outcasts (no Outcast IFF or ID).
Just because your player faction owns a system doesn't mean you own everything. Hellfire Legion tried to lay claim to the Spyglass because it could only be purchased in Vespucci. Admins shot that down rather quickly. You are no more special than HF.
Note on The Order policies - Dusty Lens - 12-25-2008
I'm inclined to throw my support in with Xoria, who inexorably speaks wisdom.
What's curious is that he somehow finds the ability to express his views without degrading into personal attacks and fear mongering.
Tenacity, you maintain that you're a clever lad, why don't you consider going ahead with your lot and making the Order council? As it catches on more people will want to be involved and to become involved they'll likely end up reviewing their day to day affairs. Heck, continue to maintain the registry and encourage more people to participate in it.
I'm not a thinking man, but if I were, I'd be thinking that communities are built on mutual enjoyment and willingness to cooperate, not on sanctioned exploding. Sanctioned exploding generally results in people leaving, or two hundred pages of blahzyblah.
' Wrote:I personally feel that the real question is if factions should be required to pay 500,000,000.
This is one of the examples of something that developed, as opposed to being imposed from the get go.
There was a dark time in discovery, a time of Junker mercenary nomads Hessian whalesharks faction proposals coming up twenty a day with a regularity which suggested that some nightmarish machine had just begun to spill its dark brood into our otherwise tranquil forum.
To which I wouldn't say that it stifles creative thought, just nebulous half formed thought.
The 500 million is a put up or shut up fund. Supposedly it goes to a guard system, though I do feel that idea is rather broken given the number of guard systems about for persons to acquire.
Note on The Order policies - Unseelie - 12-25-2008
' Wrote:All Admins may be players, but not all players are Admins. The implications are self-evident. Not to mention the fact that that is an entirely inadequate defense of your position nor is it a sufficient refutation of anything I said. Truisms, by definition, prove nothing, so offering them is of no evidential value.No, not all players are admins. Nor are all admins incorrupt. In fact...considering the number of players, and the number of admins Disco has had, I can probably prove that there have been more bad admins than there have been bad players, proportionally. Whatever position you're talking about I'm not sure of, I change my mind before every posting.
Quote:But what is especially revealing here is that when the suggestion that player faction control over ship sales to properly affiliated members of those npc factions may be removed, the response is "what's the point of paying to become an official faction then?" This necessarily implies that the most important and valuable privilege of official factions is placing restrictions on non-members of those player factions. If that is the view of people pursuing official faction status, then I think that demonstrates the inadvisability of granting them such power. It also completely ignores the numerous official factions which do not own systems and do not wish to own systems. According to the implications of the question, they must all be nuts.
Its actually a question I've had for a long time. What is the point of paying for official factiondom? I'm trying to figure out why the SU should. It certainly won't be regulating caps, or even have a guard system. Why did Bowex? I don't see the incentive, and I very much want to, because I've put so much effort into the system in the past. The 500 million, as I understand it, is an effort to force back ridiculous YANFs, which is fine, except for the fact that I feel it makes factions to hard to accomplish. I'm not arguing against these rulings, I'm simply saying that if things are so, other things should change as well. For instance, it should be less difficult to become a faction. I have, finally, come around to the view that Loh proposed, months and months ago, that factions are to difficult to found...Unless you can suggest why they need to be regulated and tightly controlled?
Note on The Order policies - Dusty Lens - 12-25-2008
' Wrote:No, not all players are admins. Nor are all admins incorrupt. In fact...considering the number of players, and the number of admins Disco has had, I can probably prove that there have been more bad admins than there have been bad players, proportionally. Whatever position you're talking about I'm not sure of, I change my mind before every posting.
I'm completely lost as to what you're attempting to communicate here.
' Wrote:Its actually a question I've had for a long time. What is the point of paying for official factiondom? I'm trying to figure out why the SU should. It certainly won't be regulating caps, or even have a guard system. Why did Bowex? I don't see the incentive, and I very much want to, because I've put so much effort into the system in the past. The 500 million, as I understand it, is an effort to force back ridiculous YANFs, which is fine, except for the fact that I feel it makes factions to hard to accomplish. I'm not arguing against these rulings, I'm simply saying that if things are so, other things should change as well. For instance, it should be less difficult to become a faction. I have, finally, come around to the view that Loh proposed, months and months ago, that factions are to difficult to found...Unless you can suggest why they need to be regulated and tightly controlled?
I'm looking back a few pages at the original topic of discussion and find myself wondering why it is that this is suddenly an item of discussion here. It might warrant a new thread. It certainly isn't the topic we're covering at the moment.
That being said, now that I've started typing whilst chugging back hangover remedies, I'd like to address my view on what you've said and see if I can find a way to tie it in with the Order discussion, hopefully I'll not go too far off track.
Official factions have less power now than they did in the days of yore. More players are spread out across different fields of interest and no longer feel that it's necessary to have a tag at the beginning or end of their name to accomplish their bit of contributing to our little story here in discovery. One thing that has run consistent however is that official factions constitute a gathering of like minded players who feel that they would like to be the standard barer for that organization, or perhaps just communicate their own version of it.
While you don't need to become official to do so, going through the effort of becoming official with access to the various tools awarded to them does provide for those organizations to become skylined, for better or for worse. Furthermore, it's a testament that you're willing to put in the time and energy to provide an example for others to follow, one way or another, in how that organization can best contribute to the overall community. It's up to them to follow or not, but you're in the best position to lead.
I'll forever be lost as to when factions became about imposing those views on other rather than providing an example to follow by. But maybe that's the peacenik Xeno in me.
Note on The Order policies - Igiss - 12-25-2008
Ok, Unseelie, Tenacity and everyone who's strongly against this new suggestion:
what do you suggest instead?
I agree with Xoria on what he said. In addition, I don't see why it's repeated again and again that we are opening more possibilities for abuse. Why are you so confident that everyone who buys ships larger than a freighter is a potental PvP whore and rule breaker?
Independent players who are neutral with appropriate faction guards should be allowed to get into the guard systems to stuff necessary for their playing. I don't see anything wrong with it. The access might be restricted to stations where universally accessible equipment is located, but you can't just universally prohibit people from entering guard systems of their own faction.
500 million payment was introduced to avoid dozens of useless faction creation requests that we received. I still remember how it was back when there was no payment at all. People got disapproved by all admins and finally bombed me with PMs about absurd faction concepts that would never gain any support from players. They didn't even want this support, just small groups of individuals who wanted a specific tag and status on them. Now, when people have to pay, they at least have to think before proposing the new faction concepts. At least for the /brief/ period of time when they are collecting those 500 million.
Note on The Order policies - Unseelie - 12-25-2008
I actually just said that I wasn't against the new rules. I just said, in light of the new rules, there shouldn't be the 500 rule.
I also remember the days before the 500 rule.
I'm suggesting, perhaps, a 300 or a 200 rule instead...Or, even, just letting everyone apply.
Note on The Order policies - Dusty Lens - 12-25-2008
' Wrote:I actually just said that I wasn't against the new rules. I just said, in light of the new rules, there shouldn't be the 500 rule.
I also remember the days before the 500 rule.
I'm suggesting, perhaps, a 300 or a 200 rule instead...Or, even, just letting everyone apply.
Do you even remember the dark times?
I would say it's eminently more reasonable to suggest that factions that make the grade get a return of their buy-in.
Though what I suspect you're implying is that you feel that the worth of official factions has depreciated to such an extent that your view is that they're no longer worth the time investment of the 500 credits.
To which I say posh.
Edit: For hecks sake Del hurry up and post! *waits impatiently*
Note on The Order policies - Reverend Del - 12-25-2008
Please do note that for those factions to whom system purchase has never been something useful or desirable we have still had many a proposal and most have been willing, or at least able, to pay. Whilst 500 million isn't the chump change it's reckoned to be, neither is it the hard slog others claim it to be. 100 million each to five members is attainable in a week and if done together can be fun to do. Hell I have enough cash to happily bankroll a clever suggestion for a faction.
Also note that this opening of guard systems to those seeking purchase of equipment, does not apply to folks who are invading your guard space without the proper rep and ID. An outcast who wants to fly a Dreadnought can do so only if his rep and ID matches what is necessary to purchase one in the first place. Your ability to police it in all other regards has neither been limited nor taken away.
Another point I wish to raise is that Xoria speaks sense, two of the factions I have helped birth have gone on to become an example to others, the XA clearly shows that what the faction does the indies do. (And I shall be glad when the Taiidan bites the dust from our ship line) The LR also leads by example. My solution to reducing capspam in Liberty was to enact a policy of docking rights to two stations. Alcatraz and Buffalo, both of them used clever RP logic to justify them, and when explained politely to folks it works even better than shooting them until they turn into little floating pixels. Simply put honey, not vinegar. Folks are here to have fun and if you try to enforce fun on them (or at least your idea of fun) with the big stick method it invariably ends badly. As it should.
Laowai had a wonderful success story the other day that proved no matter what you think of someone, you're likely to be wrong. In fact I had that proven to me by Quazar, an Independent Outcast who worked very hard with JihadJoe and myself to prevent Outcasts going on their fourth raid of Gamma in a day. You may have to beat your head on the table a few times but the message gets through. Without force, without fire, the message does get through.
Factions should not be about ruling with an iron fist in anything but roleplay. A faction is a like-minded group of people who share a vision of how a particular faction, or aspect of that faction, should be run. Using a faction to create a stranglehold is not fair play, and fair play, and thusly enjoyment for all, is what this mod should be about. Limiting ship purchase to any player goes against what I feel this mod is partly about, allowing people to explore their characters to the best manner they see fit.
Now the 500million question is not really that important, as it's not the price for becoming official, it's the price you pay to submit it in the first place. However clearly this discussion must be brought up within the the Admin team although I can guarantee it will not be going away, but perhaps we can come up with a system that allows factions that do not purchase, and will not purchase a guard system, to get their investment returned to them.
Note on The Order policies - Snapp - 12-25-2008
Quote:Though what I suspect you're implying is that you feel that the worth of official factions has depreciated to such an extent that your view is that they're no longer worth the time investment of the 500 credits.
To which I say posh.
I'll have to agree with Dusty on this;
By joining/creating a clan yes you may lose some freedoms/control over your individual character, but you gain support from fellow clan members, friendship, loyalty, shared ideas, ect, ect... the list goes on.
When divided by the number of players usually required for and or in a faction, the total comes to roughly 100mil or less per character, which really isnt as much as it may seem. If only ONE person in the faction is paying for it, then thats not exactly fair to that person and shows that they dont really have full or equal support in its creation.
In other words, factions who are working together and or have atleast 5 players should be able to easily put up the 500mil without any probs.
EDIT: What Del said was much better. :)