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+--- Thread: -keep out of omicron 100!- (/showthread.php?tid=9330)
-keep out of omicron 100!- - Tenacity - 06-15-2008
Quote:So a trader or smuggler "works for" the factions they trade with? So an artifact smuggler works for both the Corsairs and Liberty? Pretty much all (or at least most) artifacts are destined to Manhattan. So by your logic, the smuggler works for both the Corsairs and Liberty ... ironic. Guess Liberty shouldn't be complaining much since Manhattan sells counterfeit software. My smuggler moving this counterfeit software would be working for Liberty right? After all ... Liberty DOES sell contraband. Manhattan buys all kinds of contraband and sells counterfeit software. And Houston sells slaves.
The artifact trade is run by the corsairs. A large portion fo the profit from that trade gets back to the corsairs.
Likewise, the outcasts run the cardamine trade and recieve the majority of profit from it.
No money is getting to liberty with either of these goods - in fact, money is being -taken- from liberty by the smugglers who sell the contraband there.
Quote:So explain why traders are justified for the Diamond / Niobium route that passes through Sigma 13, Chugoku and Hokkaido. Is this cheating as well? They're all neutral with pirates and terrorists. Smugglers ... pay careful attention to what that word means ... are designed to ferry cargo "undetected" by authorities. Smugglers entire goal is to get cargo from point A to point B without being detected ... SO ... if they pass through undetected by you or even your NPCs ... the smuggler has done his job effectively. A smuggler's success is to make you ... the lawful guy ... think the cargo he's carrying is legal. Its YOUR job to scan him and verify the cargo is not contraband. If you're not there and your Order NPCs don't do their job (which they do scan and demand contraband is dropped) ... then you can only blame yourself.
If the order npc's dont do their job, the player has fixed his/her rep to achieve that effect - and that is against server rules, and sanctionable.
In a normal house system, a smuggler might be able to hide the fact that he's carrying contraband - thought it's very unlikely, even one unit of cardamine will get scanned by NPC police/navy and you'll get attacked for having it. Most smugglers in house systems fly through open space to avoid such patrols - they dont take any such precautions in omicron 100, they simply fix their rep and fly straight past battleship Isis like nothing is out of the ordinary.
The difference here is that omicron 100 is -not- a 'standard house system'. Nobody is allowed in that system except order tagged and ID'd ships. A smuggler is not order tagged, and not order ID'd, and as such should be hostile to all the npcs and bases in that system - if they arent, they're OoRP.
-keep out of omicron 100!- - Xydonus - 06-15-2008
Well i'm new here... So forgive me for being newbish as I still have to learn what systems are guard systems, luckily I hvn't engaged in smuggling at this stage, and when I do I certainly won't be going through the guard systems, simply my own reasons for RPing and keeping that intact. After all, these days, in RL, smugglers will try to avoid the airports, some won't and some will, those that go through probably get caught 70 to 80% of the time, maybe higher.. maybe slightly lower depending on the airport.
I've just been going through the threads about this subject, alot of anger on both fronts :nono:... Smugglers wanting to declare their right to go through a passage, regardless of its RP strength, and those responsible for guarding said systems letting out their anger at these smugglers using said routes despite the fact that they shouldn't be according to the guards.
If there is a rule, and apparently there is, that if one is a smuggler, goes into the order's guard system or any other guard system and isn't hostile to certain forces guarding that system, that really is going beyond the OOC. Like passing the police at the airport, showing them what you got in your bag, giving them a big hug and walking away into the rising sun.
I think the solution is for the admins to step in and make things clear. I don't think rules should be implemented, because thats not your solution. Rules just mean more sanctions and more work for the admins when people who don't read the rules or who foolishly go into the guard systems. So putting down some RP-rule is not going to solve the issue.
If anything, if its possible, a modification is required to the npc's. Make them tougher, have them available to stop players in trains and if possible, a need for greater weapon sentry turrets at the gates/jump holes. After all, if the guard systems are supposed to be well guared, surely they would have more effective resources at their means like sentry turrets to deter would be invaders/smugglers?
Just my thought...
-keep out of omicron 100!- - Tenacity - 06-15-2008
giving the guard npcs train cruise disruptors and -maybe- more powerful weaponry would be enough to deter people from passing through guard space they're supposed to be restricted from.
See, right now, I'm one of the only order players that ever patrols 100 to stop these smugglers. Right now, I do ok, because I've got a cruiser and as such the necessary firepower to quickly take down capships and transports/trains moving through the system.
The problem is that I will soon be downgrading to a sub-par ship for pvp purposes (and have been planning to for a long time - I'm switching to the zoner gunboat in 4.85, which jinx has said is only designed with four weapon hardpoints). That ship isnt going to be capable of taking out these players on it's own, so what happens when I switch? When I'm unable to guard the system and none of the other order pilots will take the time or effort to do so? The smugglers will continue going through that space unhindered.
So in addition to the guard npc changes, I'd really like to see more Black squadron and indie order players step up to the task and start patrolling minor/100 in order to stop the smugglers and others who are going through that space when they shouldnt be.
-keep out of omicron 100!- - ryoken - 06-15-2008
Blah argue all you want. My order cruiser see's a transport in 100, i will kill it without warning.
I will not argue, or care if you are neutral to the Guard's. If i see you aprouching 100 in minor, you will get a warning shot, and ordered to turn around. If you continue toward's 100? well see above.
I am done arguing, you enter, you die. NO IF's, AND's, or BUT's. D.E.A.D. dead.:cool:
-keep out of omicron 100!- - Heartless - 06-15-2008
Just go read the Omicron 100 rules and that's it, no discussion really, if you're not Order id'd and tagged or are an ally you get killed even if you're neutral. That includes under lvl 30 players and traders.
-keep out of omicron 100!- - Tenacity - 06-15-2008
' Wrote:Just go read the Omicron 100 rules and that's it, no discussion really, if you're not Order id'd and tagged or are an ally you get killed even if you're neutral. That includes under lvl 30 players and traders.
This is the one exception I'll make.
A lot of players have to go through controversial systems to 'set up' their characters. If they're in a CSV or starflier and state that they're just trying to set up a character I'll let them pass, as they arent a real threat to the system - but I will warn them not to come through that way again unless they're corsair/zoner/order affiliated.
-keep out of omicron 100!- - Baltar - 06-15-2008
' Wrote:The artifact trade is run by the corsairs. A large portion fo the profit from that trade gets back to the corsairs. <-- The smuggler/trader gets 6-10 mil in a single trip. Yes Corsairs get funds by the smuggler "purchasing" the artifacts ... but the smuggler/trader "sells" the artifacts to Manhattan's black market ... thus ... the smuggler/trader makes a profit. And he DOESN'T have to be a Corsair to make this profit. Same goes for the cardamine from Outcasts. A smuggler/trader is moving goods ... without them ... nobody makes money. If you take a look at the over-the-road trucking industry in the US, you'll notice that a large number of these trucks are independent of the company they are pulling freight for. So ... a smuggler/trader is NOT tied, allied or bound to any specific faction ... unless they so choose to gain an IFF and ID that says they belong to Republic Shipping or whoever.
Likewise, the outcasts run the cardamine trade and recieve the majority of profit from it. <-- See comments above.
No money is getting to liberty with either of these goods - in fact, money is being -taken- from liberty by the smugglers who sell the contraband there. <-- The contraband peddlers on the streets of Manhattan are making a profit off what they sell to the citizens of Liberty. And yes ... its a net gain for ALL involved in the smuggling of artifacts and cardamine. Corsairs, Outcasts, the smuggler/trader in the middle ... they ALL profit. But NOT all the money goes back to Corsairs and Outcasts.
If the order npc's dont do their job, the player has fixed his/her rep to achieve that effect - and that is against server rules, and sanctionable. <-- Not true ... you are taking this to an extreme sir. IF ... and I repeat ... IF ... the smuggler/trader has an Outcast ID and IFF ... he's enemies of Corsairs ... NOT necessarily an enemy of Order. Read the infocard ... you'll see that Outcast are not listed as enemies of Order. And just because you are allied with Corsairs doesn't mean you share their enemies and allies. Now ... the reality is that smugglers like mine do not have an IFF ... they are unaffiliated. And they bear the generic Smuggler ID. So ... I don't "work for" anyone but me. So my reputation with Order is NEUTRAL ... and is perfectly within role play to be so. Now ... if I understand the way contraband is setup in the game ... NPCs respond when they actually "scan" the smuggler/trader. If they don't scan ... they don't know they're smuggling. And if they do scan and demand you drop the cargo ... and you don't ... then they go red. Now quit trying to make some rule up that doesn't exist. There's no rule that says a smuggler carrying cardamine through Omega 100 is illegal and sanctionable. Maybe in your head it should be ... but reality says ... YOU have to secure your borders. Now get over it and do your job instead of calling on admins to do it for you.
In a normal house system, a smuggler might be able to hide the fact that he's carrying contraband - thought it's very unlikely, even one unit of cardamine will get scanned by NPC police/navy and you'll get attacked for having it. Most smugglers in house systems fly through open space to avoid such patrols - they dont take any such precautions in omicron 100, they simply fix their rep and fly straight past battleship Isis like nothing is out of the ordinary. <-- Omicron 100 has no trade lanes ... so they are by default flying through open space. And there's PLENTY of open space to avoid patrols and bases. If they happen to pass by Isis and don't get scanned ... who's fault is that? Again ... the Order is more concerned with the Nomad infestation than a small time smuggler. If you want to take the Order beyond what the traditional plain vanilla story line says ... you'll have to enforce it yourself. But the Order really doesn't care about contraband as much as the houses do ... with exception of course to Nomad ships/equipment and artifacts.
The difference here is that omicron 100 is -not- a 'standard house system'. Nobody is allowed in that system except order tagged and ID'd ships. A smuggler is not order tagged, and not order ID'd, and as such should be hostile to all the npcs and bases in that system - if they arent, they're OoRP. <-- The restriction on Omicron 100 is player faction imposed ... not server rule imposed. If you want to control the system ... you have to enforce your own created rules. You can't force the game engine to enforce your role play. The ONLY OORP vessels in Order space (Omicron 100 or Minor) would be those who are "specifically listed" in the Order enemy list. All factions and individuals NOT on your enemy list (as written on the infocard) are neutral. If you ... as a faction ... declare them hostile ... then YOU have to enforce that faction rule. But it is NOT sanctionable for them to pass through there. No more than Kusari can call on the admins to enforce their anti-engine component exportation rule. And Omicron 100 is no more special than Virginia, Vespucci, Puerto Rico, Cassini, etc etc etc.
EDIT: I notice you chose not to respond to my question concerning your letting those "setting up" their characters pass through without a challenge. Make em take another route to Omicron Delta.
-keep out of omicron 100!- - ryoken - 06-15-2008
As i said. I will not argue. Come to 100,and you die.
-keep out of omicron 100!- - Tenacity - 06-15-2008
Quote:Not true ... you are taking this to an extreme sir. IF ... and I repeat ... IF ... the smuggler/trader has an Outcast ID and IFF ... he's enemies of Corsairs ... NOT necessarily an enemy of Order. Read the infocard ... you'll see that Outcast are not listed as enemies of Order. And just because you are allied with Corsairs doesn't mean you share their enemies and allies. Now ... the reality is that smugglers like mine do not have an IFF ... they are unaffiliated. And they bear the generic Smuggler ID. So ... I don't "work for" anyone but me. So my reputation with Order is NEUTRAL ... and is perfectly within role play to be so. Now ... if I understand the way contraband is setup in the game ... NPCs respond when they actually "scan" the smuggler/trader. If they don't scan ... they don't know they're smuggling. And if they do scan and demand you drop the cargo ... and you don't ... then they go red. Now quit trying to make some rule up that doesn't exist. There's no rule that says a smuggler carrying cardamine through Omega 100 is illegal and sanctionable. Maybe in your head it should be ... but reality says ... YOU have to secure your borders. Now get over it and do your job instead of calling on admins to do it for you.
Again, you're missing the point of what I said.
I dont give a rat's ass if you're allied with the order, nuetral, or hostile - you arent allowed in omicron 100. It is not a normal system, it's a guard system, a military base - they dont let any 'nuetral' civilian just walk through unhindered. If you arent an order pilot you have no place being there, no matter what your reputation with the faction is.
As for the scanning - that's a problem with the npcs right now. After killing a cardi smuggler the other day in 100, I patrolled the system three times, passing by dozens of npc patrols, and not a single one scanned my cargo hold for the cardamine I had tractored in. That doesnt mean the NPC's shouldnt shoot anyone without an order ID in that system, however.
Quote: Omicron 100 has no trade lanes ... so they are by default flying through open space. And there's PLENTY of open space to avoid patrols and bases. If they happen to pass by Isis and don't get scanned ... who's fault is that? Again ... the Order is more concerned with the Nomad infestation than a small time smuggler. If you want to take the Order beyond what the traditional plain vanilla story line says ... you'll have to enforce it yourself. But the Order really doesn't care about contraband as much as the houses do ... with exception of course to Nomad ships/equipment and artifacts.
I dont think you get what we're talking about here - omicron 100 is not omicron minor, the Isis is in minor, not 100. You're thinking of an entirely different system.
Omicron 100 is covered in a near solid asteroid field. There are small 'pockets' of space around the stations/planets, and there are tunnels inbetween those and the jump holes. In order to get from the omicron minor jump hole to the omicron major jump hole, you have to fly directly past battleship apophis and lisbon station - there isnt any avoiding it.
By the way, it's really annoying tryign to read your comments inside a quote box.
-keep out of omicron 100!- - Baltar - 06-15-2008
' Wrote:As i said. I will not argue. Come to 100,and you die. <-- Cool ... no problem with this since it is part of the role play. But don't go talking sanctions like Tenacity is.
' Wrote:Again, you're missing the point of what I said. <-- I get your point ... you are missing mine. You can role play this fine ... but keep the sanction crap out. This is not a server rule issue ... its an Order role play issue that was "created" by Black Squadron. So ... Black Squadron is responsible for enforcing their own rule. That's my point here.
I dont give a rat's ass if you're allied with the order, nuetral, or hostile - you arent allowed in omicron 100. It is not a normal system, it's a guard system, a military base - they dont let any 'nuetral' civilian just walk through unhindered. If you arent an order pilot you have no place being there, no matter what your reputation with the faction is. <-- Then Black Squadron (owners of Omicron 100) should enforce it ... in role play ... and not through "threats" of sanctions.
As for the scanning - that's a problem with the npcs right now. After killing a cardi smuggler the other day in 100, I patrolled the system three times, passing by dozens of npc patrols, and not a single one scanned my cargo hold for the cardamine I had tractored in. That doesnt mean the NPC's shouldnt shoot anyone without an order ID in that system, however. <-- The game engine is not designed to KOS non-Order ID'd characters. Again ... this is a rule "created" by Black Squadron. It is NOT server imposed ... its faction imposed. So its the faction's responsibility to patrol and take on the smugglers ... the NPCs are responding the way traditional plain vanilla Order were programmed to respond. So take your complaints up with Microsoft or with Igiss to change the way the NPCs respond to non-Order ID'd vessels in Omicron 100.
I dont think you get what we're talking about here - omicron 100 is not omicron minor, the Isis is in minor, not 100. You're thinking of an entirely different system. <-- I get it ... trust me ... and Virginia is not New York ... Vespucci is not Magellan ... Hiroshima is not New Tokyo ... what else? And I'm not confused of where Isis is. YOU used Isis in your example ... we both know that Isis is in orbit above Toledo and that it lies between the Omicron 100 jump hole and the docking ring of Toledo. There's no confusion there. But my argument still stands. There's plenty of open space and no trade lanes for a smuggler/trader to avoid your patrols and bases. The most vulnerable location for the smuggler/trader is as he's jumping in and out of Omicron 100 and Omicron Minor because of the patrols and guns set up there. But the Order would still need to scan the smuggler/trader (which by the way IS part of the rules ... that you must scan them for the cargo they carry ... and for their ID).
Omicron 100 is covered in a near solid asteroid field. There are small 'pockets' of space around the stations/planets, and there are tunnels inbetween those and the jump holes. In order to get from the omicron minor jump hole to the omicron major jump hole, you have to fly directly past battleship apophis and lisbon station - there isnt any avoiding it. <-- You don't smuggle much do you? There's more than ONE route between the jump holes. And the safest is not directly past any base. Have you heard of going "around" the bases. That's kinda what smugglers do when they avoid trade lanes in house systems ... they travel outside the lanes and keep out of scanner range of bases and planets. And I don't know how much you know about three dimensions ... but you can go vertical up or down. You don't have to travel in a straight line. Try another excuse please.
By the way, it's really annoying tryign to read your comments inside a quote box. <-- Best way I've found to respond to each point. Just look for the yellow text and you'll be fine. Then again ... if you want to make the way I reply sanctionable ... I'm sure many would get a kick out of that.