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+--- Thread: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? (/showthread.php?tid=117168)
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - SMI-Great.Fox - 06-28-2014
(06-28-2014, 01:39 AM)myg0t33 Wrote:
As for the Independent Systems of Coronado and Cortez, Coronado has been claimed by the CR and Cortez is overseen by Liberty and Bretonia (both of whom have jurisdiction there). So you might find that the Junkers, in the future, will be given Inverness but it still might be under Bretonian jurisdiction.
Unlikely.
All attempts on myself to work with such are met with a massive "No". So dont count on it in the near future or future.
Independant it may be. But its still under Bretonian Jurisdiction.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - Marcus - 06-28-2014
The British in particular have a history of owning places they have little pressence in even when they don't have the reasources to manage it. Remembering that they had colonies in many parts of the world, they owned Hong Kong until 1997 and still held legislative power over in the Australian goverment until 1986. And those are just the ones that I know about. If they could fight through two world wars and still have power/holdings in two seperate fully formed counties then I'd say it's not unreasonable to say that Bretonia still claims ownership of a system that is right next door to Newcastle.
Fox is quite right when saying that it is likely to remain under Bretonian jurisdiction. Offers of credits arn't going to be of much interest. The Junkers, expansive as they are, still would not be able to offer enough, either in RP or Oorp.
In RP Bretonia lacks more in manufactoring ability, personal and material then it does credits. Material is something that is short everywhere with everyone being at war. If Bretonia needs credits the funds can be raised from many different sources such the simple war bond to taking out loans from other companies, corperations and goverments. Many companies and corperations would be thought to have just as much credits as the Junkers potentially should and would put them in good graces after the war.
In Oorp terms of credits, the Bretonian goverment already has enough funds behind us from licences which, ironically, came from base registration...
If you cannot own the system there are still other options open that you can explore, such as leasing the system, asking for contract rights to police the system or asking that it becomes a protectorate of Bretonia.
Your frustation is understandable and your efforts in develoment admirable, but the ownership is, and always has been, to the Bretonian Goverment. The refusal to change control might be frustrating but it is realistic, and our choice. The removal of a system from a house should not be done by the force of admins or devs, it should be as a result of an RP event by either law transferal or hostial takeover.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - AceofSpades - 06-28-2014
(06-28-2014, 02:15 AM)SMI-Great.Fox Wrote: Unlikely.
All attempts on myself to work with such are met with a massive "No". So dont count on it in the near future or future.
"I wont do anything for anybody that isn't what I want for myself"
Fantaaaaastic. Productive. Revealing.
So even though the Bretonian borders were redrawn with this last update, and the fact that Bretonia still controls such a wide sphere of influence in that direction is an RP oversight, lets deny all conversation or logical thought because some "good old boys" want to hold on to power, in spite of public opinion or common sense.
I'm an American and therefore already have to deal with enough of this self-serving attitude almost every day of my life. This is the definition of sour RP and the reason this server (like our gov't) remains stagnant instead of progressing.. I am here to have fun and be a productive, contributing part of a larger community. If you want to dictate all of what goes on around you at the expense of others, stop doing it here and go run for office.
As an under-appreciated cartoon philosopher once said:
"You aren't just lying, you're slowing down the progress of all mankind, ..."
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Marcus, you make a strong point with the British being a historically colonial power. I also agree with much of the history you've described, I must note though that there is one significant difference between this first paragraph of history, and the current British/Bretonian Disco RP
(06-28-2014, 03:07 AM)Marcus Wrote: The British in particular have a history of owning places they have little pressence in even when they don't have the reasources to manage it. Remembering that they had colonies in many parts of the world, they owned Hong Kong until 1997 and still held legislative power over in the Australian goverment until 1986. And those are just the ones that I know about. If they could fight through two world wars and still have power/holdings in two seperate fully formed counties then I'd say it's not unreasonable to say that Bretonia still claims ownership of a system that is right next door to Newcastle.It makes sense to remain an established power with colonial holdings in respect to a British Military that was winning numerous wars, obtaining further control and power while reducing their enemies. This case, in Disco RP, is the exact opposite however, with the British Military reduced significantly while currently in the process of losing a war. Many British holdings during the World Wars, despite the Allies eventual victory, were not maintainable during times of (even winning) conflict.
This part I really do appreciate, thank you for being mindful of others hard work.
(06-28-2014, 03:07 AM)Marcus Wrote: Your frustation is understandable and your efforts in develoment admirable, but the ownership is, and always has been, to the Bretonian Goverment. The refusal to change control might be frustrating but it is realistic, and our choice. The removal of a system from a house should not be done by the force of admins or devs, it should be as a result of an RP event by either law transferal or hostial takeover.
I do agree that RP events/story, versus the community's decision or an admin change, is what should bring about this sort of change. Unfortunately little RP or any other work has been able to take place because most Pilots do not share your constructive attitude (see, top half of post). The roleplay regarding Inverness has been repeatedly pushed aside, forced to remained stagnant, and is unresolved after months of RP.. so I am pressing the matter here with the Community rather than try to deal with a few specific persons.
As always, all constructive discussion is appreciated
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - Echo 7-7 - 06-28-2014
There's nothing wrong with Bretonia laying claim to Inverness, but their effective authority over the system is minimal at best. Essentially, it's an indepedent system*, with a notable Junker presence, but they are not the sole inhabitants and they certainly don't have the economic or military strength to make it that way.
*read also: Bretonia ZoI does not include Inverness.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - Vulkhard Muller - 06-28-2014
(06-28-2014, 04:00 AM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: *read also: Bretonia ZoI does not include Inverness.
Though wouldn't it fall under the "Systems Directly boarding Bretonia"?
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - SMI-Great.Fox - 06-28-2014
(06-28-2014, 04:00 AM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: *read also: Bretonia ZoI does not include Inverness.
I was under the notice and the like that Bretonian ZoI did include Inverness for the past few years. When did this change?
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - AceofSpades - 06-28-2014
That's the entire point, it hasn't changed. Inverness still is considered within the Bretonian ZOI as per documents drafted in pre-.86 days. The ongoing RP and actual situation Bretonia is in has played little to no effect on the consideration of their ZOI, which would be something you'd want to be addressing when releasing a new mod update anyway.. I wouldn't have a problem with Bretonia owning, and making Military claim, to the Inverness system in .85 and even .86, Bretonia (at that time) had the resources, and the ambition. But with things the way they are now, its an impossible position to defend. Most importantly there is zero interest or value (Economically or 'Geographically') that Bretonia has invested in Inverness, and theyve already lost actual nearby systems of interest[/u] such as Leeds--right next door to the capital.
Continuing to lay claim to the system, diverting resources from the frontlines of Leeds and London to do so, and then not even bothering to attempt to negotiate with its (growing population) of occupants would absolutely be strategic suicide. No well-minded Commander would divert his forces and resources in this manner for an area of zero strategic value. Also, re-considering the ZOI within the RP of a new mod update is important just as balancing the new weapons and equipment is, hence the incredible amount of work done on ID's recently.
and most importantly perhaps.. simply "keeping things the same because its written in the old laws" is akin to how Mississippi had not 'officially abolished slavery' until just last year. If that's the way we're going to review and consider policy, we might as well just start considering ourselves another community of backwards peoples.. *ahem* Mississippi.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - Echo 7-7 - 06-28-2014
(06-28-2014, 04:15 AM)Vulkhard Muller Wrote:(06-28-2014, 04:00 AM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: *read also: Bretonia ZoI does not include Inverness.
Though wouldn't it fall under the "Systems Directly boarding Bretonia"?
Yes, but that's not Bretonia proper.
(06-28-2014, 04:26 AM)SMI-Great.Fox Wrote:(06-28-2014, 04:00 AM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: *read also: Bretonia ZoI does not include Inverness.
I was under the notice and the like that Bretonian ZoI did include Inverness for the past few years. When did this change?
As above, it's part of the BAF ZoI, but House Navy ZoIs extend over the sovereign borders of their Houses. Given that Inverness is only accessible by Jump Hole, it's somewhat of a smugglers haven, and there are no regular lawful patrols... go figure.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - Marcus - 06-28-2014
That Inverness isn't listed as Bretonian ZoI is certainly new to me, and distressing. Although given that systems such as Omega 3 arn't listed either is seems contested systems don't get that status.
Inverness is still listed in the Bretonian Interstellar Laws as Bretonian space though, and as an adjacent system can still be patrolled. Even though it is a jump hole only system it isn't a 'hidden' jump hole such those that need those special RP filter glasses. Inverness has been know to and under claim of Bretonia for some time, so we know it's there, much like Dundee, Salisbury, Coronado and Chester.
Claim over a system doesn't necessarily mean the ability to defend it militarily, nor that it has current interest in it. Goverments also think long term (or should) and any system that close to Bretonia would eventually be one to be opened up for development at a later date, much like the colonisation in Omega 3. It's protecting potential investes for the long term. Other times the value of a system lies purely because it is wanted by someone else and the value that they place on it.
(06-28-2014, 03:42 AM)AceofSpades Wrote: It makes sense to remain an established power with colonial holdings in respect to a British Military that was winning numerous wars, obtaining further control and power while reducing their enemies. This case, in Disco RP, is the exact opposite however, with the British Military reduced significantly while currently in the process of losing a war. Many British holdings during the World Wars, despite the Allies eventual victory, were not maintainable during times of (even winning) conflict.Going back to my previous examples certainly if China had told the British that they could take their claim on Hong Kong and to hell with it there wouldn't have been a great deal that the British could have done. Even though it would have been completely impossible to maintain control they still did for quite some time. The reason is that while the British had an establish claim, just as Bretonia does over Inverness, the behaviour required to forceably remove that claim requires hostile behaviour towards that county. While you are completely correct in that Bretonia could not defend Inverness should it be invaded in this case that there is no hostile force attempting to take it from us. There are only Junkers there and should Junkers ever forceably take Inverness for themselves from Bretonia it would affect not only their relationship with Bretonia but also with the other houses as well.
(06-28-2014, 04:48 AM)AceofSpades Wrote: Continuing to lay claim to the system, diverting resources from the frontlines of Leeds and London to do so, and then not even bothering to attempt to negotiate with its (growing population) of occupants would absolutely be strategic suicide.I'm not entirely sure as to the what and to whom the Junker's have negositated with in the Bretonian goverment but if you feel that comm posts arn't doing the job then you're always welcome to contact me directly. Since there isn't any department within Bretonia that deals with people wanting to buy systems these things tend circle around a little. Although I would say that Bretonia would be resistant to lose control of Inverness I enjoy finding alternate solutions and I pass everything along directly to the rest of the War Cabient for review. An interested party on the other side of the line always helps things along.
DELETE - SnakThree - 06-28-2014
DELETE