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+--- Thread: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences (/showthread.php?tid=146453)
RE: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences - Laura C. - 12-22-2016
(12-22-2016, 05:51 AM)sindroms Wrote: Just to note, the rules for FR5 are quite possibly going to be changed soon, especially regarding smuggling.
Despite I don´t have personally problem with this since RFP has enough common sense regarding FR5s for smuggling, seems to me that faction(s) from certain region screwed it again but everyone will suffer from consequencies because new rules are for everyone. Oh well.
Anyway, while this may cover smuggling, it won´t cover other illegal behaviour and mainly it won´t stop for example indies from enforcing laws in another house. Possible solution I see is to not add Omega-3/O-7 as part of ZOI, but only add line worded something like "Can enforce Rheinland laws and assist Rheinland lawfuls in Omega-7" for BAF and "Can enforce Bretonian laws and assist Bretonian lawfuls in Omega-3" for RM.
Edit: Tweaked it a little.
RE: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences - FallenKnight - 12-22-2016
You are all exaggerating, especially you Jack. Please read carefully the wall below...
To be honest I like these changes simply because they are needed in order other things in RP between Rheinland and Bretonia to be legit, which would otherwise reflect in to OORP violations - using ships with IDs out of your ZOI.
Let me explain you something. I begun long discussions with Rheinland lawful community during the summer - where we begun to build the new treaty for the Omegas, primary concerning the borders of the both Houses or in short Omega-3, for Bretonia, and Omega-7, for Rheinland.
During these discussions there was something of great importance - both sides agreed that each of these omega systems fall directly under their control but most importantly - the opposite side would follow the laws of the House which system they are currently present. In short - RM/lawfuls/ would not touch anyone else in Omega-3 and would not bother to handle things that they might find illegal simply because they are present in Bretonian territory. Absolutely the same "rule" falls for bretonian lawfuls. I will also add that Rheinland dont want Bretonian lawfuls inside Omega-7 on top of that Bretonia dont have interest at the moment to go so far...unless its needed in critical situations like assisting RM against Corsairs/Nomads and other "Omega enemies" to both Houses.
So, any situation you presented here and were mentioned in the main thread about this change - are simply not going to happen due to the agreement between our communities - bretonian and rheinland. In order these changes not to cause any troubles in future - I will push forward back on the line the oorp discussions we had with Rheinland community, in order to complete the RP treaty which will strictly act as ingame rules of what BAF or RM or BIS or BDM can and cant do...while being present in O-3/O-7.
There is no need to boil the oil and grasp the lighter - for the things are not going to be so grim as most of you are describing them.
PS: Currently neither BAF nor RM can fight properly in these Omega systems. The point is that inRP things are moving well between the Houses but in OORP level - speaking about the rules of the ID and any possible violations - both sides were with tied hands. For example RM in O-3 fighting next to BAF lets say the corsairs...would lead to RM being sanctioned due to fighting away from their zone of influence...now with these new changes, such possible future scenarios would NOT lead to such sanctions. I guess thats the point of all these changes...and again - once the RP treaty is signed - the official lawful factions will do their best to maintain order...as for the indies - you are aware incidents can happen and will happen but I am sure both sides will attempt to guide and control them.
Sorry for the wall but I thought it necessary to step in and bring some light.
PS: Neither of BPA nor RFP will enter the opposite space. Simply because its not their role and in OORP we agreed that is not needed and would definitely solve a lot of issues. Assistance between militaries is another story - the only beneficial trait from these changes.
RE: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences - Zyliath - 12-22-2016
I thought of another solution: give RM a 10k range around the Omega 3 > Omega 7 jumpgate and also give the BAF a 10k range around the Omega 7 > Omega 3 jumpgate.
Within this 10k range, said factions can enforce their laws.
RE: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences - Laura C. - 12-22-2016
(12-22-2016, 09:27 AM)FallenKnight Wrote: once the RP treaty is signed - the official lawful factions will do their best to maintain order...as for the indies - you are aware incidents can happen and will happen but I am sure both sides will attempt to guide and control them.
You can´t control indies, you should know that. If we just blindly add another Omega and thus by ID rules allow them to enforce laws in another house, it will happen and official lawfuls can do nothing with it. Aside from fact that you can´t be there 24/7, you can´t order them to not enforce the laws when their ID says they can and you can´t punish them for not listening you, because they act in accordance with their ID. They don´t have to care about some RP treaty which officials made which is in conflict with their ID text (and lot of them won´t even know about it). I mentioned possible solution above, but it definitely needs to solved otherwise this change will turn into mess.
(12-22-2016, 09:25 AM)Laura C. Wrote: it won´t stop for example indies from enforcing laws in another house. Possible solution I see is to not add Omega-3/O-7 as part of ZOI, but only add line worded something like "Can enforce Rheinland laws and assist Rheinland lawfuls in Omega-7" for BAF and "Can enforce Bretonian laws and assist Bretonian lawfuls in Omega-3" for RM.
RE: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences - FallenKnight - 12-22-2016
Zyliath, and to others with future similar "ideas"...do not worry - our communities already handled the military aspect of the new treaty. The area of activity, lets call it that, for a specific lawful official faction is already being handled. The only details that needs to be double checked are concerning the trading aspect of this cooperation.
It is only a matter of time before we complete the RP treaty but the OORP discussions handled everything. So just be patient.
Laura,you are right but we are well aware nobody can control the indies that don't listen but my point was that when incidents concerning indies from both sides causing troubles are on the line - the official BAF or RM should act accordingly to handle such situations. Indie RM bricks coming to O-3 and causing troubles should simply be NOT taken seriously from RP point of view like if official RM ship did it. Same should apply for BAF indies causing troubles. Once we separate the issues that way - all will be fine. I am sure most good indies would try to RP properly...but those like, lets not say names but you know who I mean from bretonian side, can't wait to rush O-7 for pew pew...with that nobody can help it.
If we have to always place indies as the main reason why things should not be implemented, well...then these bad indies are the reason why nothing special can be given due to fear from a possible abusive actions. It is important to note that official factions RP is leading to necessity for ID changes. The current situation simply requires these changes for RP sake. Indies are an issue yes but it is unfair to bash around those that care for RP and RP progress of their Houses simply because "indies" can mess around. If a lot of people share such concerns then simply do the right thing and add these exceptions only to official BAF/BIS/RM/BDM factions and all will be handled. Indies would NOT be able to go to these Omega systems to rain havoc.
Lets take the history from example - most issues inRP were caused by messing bad indie behavior with official one. As I said - once we separate "those indies that don't want to follow the rules of RP" with "those indies that do follow the rules of RP" - all will be fine. There are a lot of good indies out there which must not suffer because of the incompetence of several RPblind dudes.
RE: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences - Laura C. - 12-22-2016
I am not saying it should not be implemented, I say we should make the ID wording the way it will leave only very little space for those which wants to act in a way this change was not designed for. Fact that there won´t be roleplay consequencies will mean nothing for victims of these ingame encounters where people will be totally confused by what is happening to them.
RE: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences - FallenKnight - 12-22-2016
A lot of people are really exaggerating with ZOI...Nobody from LPI ever came to Bretonia to play a police offcer. Yes there were several incidents with indies and etc but overall the situation was handled properly. That was an example with similar possible issues raised in the past when Liberty lawfuls gained some ID changes.
Now same thing is probably going to happen with Omegas and again no RFP nor BPA should visa versa go to dictate order in the other system. ZOI might mean someone is having the right to enforce specific ID law...but from RP point of view - most of the time what you can do is not what you must nor is needed to be done.
Overall Rheinland dont want BAF inside O7 and Bretonia dont want RM inside O3. But due to RP events Bretonia will do exception and allow either BDM or RM to assist them handling the Omega Enemies - those that ruin both Houses. That doesnt mean Bretonia will allow these lawfuls to enforce Rheinland law. Even if they have the ID to do so - they wont have RP permission to act. If they do and problems in RP are on the line - then be sure that RP actions will lead to RP consequences. As for bretonian lawfuls - they simply have no reason to go to O-7 at this moment due to RP facts but small squadrons might assist RM if needed. Point is the cooperation to be mutual.
Nobody from our communities, officially, ever agreed their lawfuls to extend their ZOI in the way most described it - pointing at Jack's blood diamonds example. If blood diamonds are legal in Bretonia - RM/BDM should simply ignore that cuz they are in our space. The opposite is in effect as well.
And to end any further drama - check this link. It will allow you to understand what is our mutual goal. All else are simply speculations.
You will notice there is nothing about BAF going to O-7 officially. As for Rheinland stance:
"III. The Rheinland “Task Force” will respect all the laws of House Bretonia."
Hope this will throw some light.
RE: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences - Laura C. - 12-22-2016
What is the problem in implementing this change the way it will prevent problems by default instead of relying on common sense and roleplay attitude of players (what does not work in Disco)? I described possible solution already, it is quite simple.
RE: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences - Jack_Henderson - 12-22-2016
sindroms Wrote:Just to note, the rules for FR5 are quite possibly going to be changed soon, especially regarding smuggling.
Welcomed change, however the issue is not restricted to smuggling.
It encompasses literally every law violation, some of which can have far-reaching consequences (e.g. docking of factions illegal in Rheinland at Freeport 1 in O3). And we know the amount of mess that "hostile docking" can create alone.
(12-22-2016, 09:27 AM)FallenKnight Wrote: I begun long discussions with Rheinland lawful community during the summer - where we begun to build the new treaty for the Omegas, primary concerning the borders of the both Houses or in short Omega-3, for Bretonia, and Omega-7, for Rheinland.
The fact that the IMG (with 2 NPC and 1 POB in O3/7) was not contacted and asked for an angle on such a topic leaves a bad taste for me. Were Zoners contacted? Going by "significance of base placement" or "likely impact of change on players", Omega changes should at least have their opinions heard. See old treaties (Like Snowdown) in which also the now-marginalized factions had a say and were included. Courtesy would have it that there is discussion at least on a player-player level if you want to exclude them in the irp treaties, which of course you can do.
Quote:During these discussions there was something of great importance - both sides agreed that each of these omega systems fall directly under their control but most importantly - the opposite side would follow the laws of the House which system they are currently present. In short - RM/lawfuls/ would not touch anyone else in Omega-3 and would not bother to handle things that they might find illegal simply because they are present in Bretonian territory. Absolutely the same "rule" falls for bretonian lawfuls. I will also add that Rheinland dont want Bretonian lawfuls inside Omega-7 on top of that Bretonia dont have interest at the moment to go so far...unless its needed in critical situations like assisting RM against Corsairs/Nomads and other "Omega enemies" to both Houses.
So, any situation you presented here and were mentioned in the main thread about this change - are simply not going to happen due to the agreement between our communities - bretonian and rheinland.
Alright. You agreed. It's nice to know and I appreciate it.
However: You do know that your agreement means nothing when it comes to the hard reality whenever Disco mess happens.
1. You cannot control indies. As long as they stay inside their ID (which now has O7 as ZoI), they can go against your roleplay (which is non-cannon) and you can't even FR2 them to follow your roleplay as long as they follow their ID. And they do not break it. So if - let's say - a group of players decides to go against your official faction agreement, you can't do anything about it.
If, for example, a group of haters inside Rheinland lawful players decided to make a Rheinland Military extremist squadron to police Aland/IMG in O3 with Rheinland law, THEY CAN. Do not tell me "they won't" because that is irrelevant. They can. And that is why this is a rule issue and not a "but we talked and agreed..." issue.
2. This is not only an O3/O7 Rule Change issue. It is a general issue whenever "law regions" overlap. In cases in which a situation is not clear, rules are needed to keep mess from happening.
If, for example, a group of haters inside Rheinland lawful players decided to make a Rheinland Military extremist squadron to police Aland/IMG in O3 with Rheinland law, THEY CAN. Do not tell me "they won't" because that is irrelevant. They can. And that is why this is a rule issue and not a "but we talked and agreed..." issue.
2. This is not only an O3/O7 Rule Change issue. It is a general issue whenever "law regions" overlap. In cases in which a situation is not clear, rules are needed to keep mess from happening.
Quote:There is no need to boil the oil and grasp the lighter - for the things are not going to be so grim as most of you are describing them.
I think I made this thread here in a manner that clearly shows a rule gap and potential exploits and damage. That's not "inflamatory". I just know rather well what could happen to Borderworld dwellers (IMG/Zoners) when there is no clear rule definition of these cases. If I had been asked in this month-long process, I could have pointed out the ramifications of what this could mean for the non-house players. As this obviously has not happened, this is the only way to get this necessary discussion.
Quote:PS: Currently neither BAF nor RM can fight properly in these Omega systems. The point is that inRP things are moving well between the Houses but in OORP level - speaking about the rules of the ID and any possible violations - both sides were with tied hands. For example RM in O-3 fighting next to BAF lets say the corsairs...would lead to RM being sanctioned due to fighting away from their zone of influence
I agree, it was somewhat messy. However, it also kept the Omegas as a piracy route and raid targets attractive. Sitting on the O3/O7 gate is a good spot. I know, lawfuls hate that when the target jumps outside of ZoI and I know this well enough. However, this is in my opinion what the Border Worlds should somewhat be: you can get away with crime to an extent. It may be not satisfactory for House players who cannot project their power on these pesky pirates or raiders. Sure. But perhaps that would mean that other entities in that region should have more of a role to play: Bounty Hunters are lorewise the force to "police" these areas. Corporate militias also. Both have the ZOI to do it. Perhaps the Navy is not even meant to be the group to do that job - perhaps think about this aspect also.
So, while I of course see the problems (like a player-list pirate jumping into O7 when BAF enters O3 from CAM), I think that part of it (not the meta part, obviously!) is a feature, not a bug.
Also as a participant in Corsair raids, I appreciated the O3/O7 ZoI division line a lot. It made arranging and balancing fights easier when the raiders could choose whom to fight. Yes, it is kind of artificial and an oorp thought, but it is also no fun to find yourself killed by 2 House navies. I think a certain danger of overdoing it is there definitely - however time will tell this one and I somewhat trust officials to try not to have a Crezi-Bergel-Wraith gank on the next Sair raid.
Quote:...as for the indies - you are aware incidents can happen and will happen but I am sure both sides will attempt to guide and control them.
And, to return to the rulewise problem, I can only say: I appreciate your attempt, and I am surprised by your optimism, but you cannot control them, and that's why ZoI needs to be a rule aspect and permissions need to be fixed and clear inside the ID or the rules. Veterans know that every opportunity will be exploited by a few special people.
Thank you for explaining your point of few. I appreciate it.
Jack
RE: Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences - FallenKnight - 12-22-2016
Laura, I am for anything that will "remove" any possible issues but to keep the basis of the change intact. In short - if you have a good idea forward it to the admins and lets hope they will find a good solution. I don't want to sound like someone who requested this change but I do agree that these changes are suitable and reflect the current RP between the Houses.