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+--- Thread: BAF with Pirate ID's ? (/showthread.php?tid=14106)
BAF with Pirate ID's ? - Unseelie - 12-05-2008
I cede to Blunts logic. IT seems I've been ignored. I think I address all of these issues.
But, for the sake of excruciating detail, I'll address one issue. The argument of Lawful Versus Unlawful.
I'll begin with law. On every base in the sector, I suspect there are laws, rules, and enforcers of such. I think a very, very common one, and perhaps the only universal one, is probably "You shall not punch holes in our station." That makes sense to anyone who wants to survive. Beyond that, if you want a decent marketplace, you need to enforce private property rights, so I'd suggest that every single base is a lawful entity, in that it has laws. Whether or not its laws fall in line with the laws of any other base, is up to the inhabitants. Now, in the discussion of nation states vs pirates, there's an inherent flaw in assuming that each pirate faction isn't a nation, albeit smaller than the great houses. They're nations at war, civilizations each struggling to impose their will on each other. The smaller ones are marginalized, either because they are fanatics or because of some other oddity of their character or history. They don't feel that what they're doing is wrong, for the most part, they each feel entirely justified in stealing or killing, because the lawful entities are doing something wrong. The liberty Rogues, for example, are mostly people incapable of finding jobs, or people who are addicted to cardamine. There is no way to dextox from a cardamine addiction, yet cardamine is illegal, and its addicts are prosecuted, so they leave, and join the nation of the Liberty Rogues, where they can live and prosper lawfully.
In one house's space, a revolutionary is seen as a terrorist by the ruling party. In another, they're generally helpful blokes (or women, in the case of the GC). In Alpha or Gamma, the Outcasts or Corsairs generally maintain rather standard order, while the BHG, whom are at least tolerated by the Houses, act like the worst criminals. Indeed, two houses are at war with one another, and consider each other in the wrong.
This isn't single people and petty crimes, this is nation states and politics.
BAF with Pirate ID's ? - pchwang - 12-05-2008
Excuse me, but why are we still arguing this?
He's wrong. End of story.
Put the egos back in their holsters...
BAF with Pirate ID's ? - Zapp - 12-05-2008
' Wrote:My whole point, if anyone cared to look for it, was not to whine but to point out one basic flaw in the logic of having BAF pirates. In this very thread they say they make demands from everyone, whether they're hauling cargo or not, whether they're holding Kusari IDs or not. That is basic and pure piracy. Ironically I was accused of OORP today because I held a Zoner ID (look it up, they're described as neutral on the WIKI) and flying a Liberty Gunboat.
Make demands of everyone... in Kusari. Trading with Kusari makes people enemies of Bretonia, simple as. If they're trade ships in there, with or without cargo, they're more than likely trading with Kusari. Being in the Taus and heading towards Kusari makes you about to trade with Kusari, which is also bad.
Also, being neutral to people does not mean you can fly their ships. LPI and KSP are technically neutral, and you won't see them flying each other's ships, now will you?
' Wrote:This whole BAF piracy thing is nothing more than OORP. Either you're lawful or you're not. If you're a pirate then you should be flying pirate ships, NOT lawful naval ships. It's nothing more than an excuse to have better ships than other pirates.
Better ships? Pirates could pick a Sabre, and we all know that the Sabre is better than the Templar. Don't throw that around. Also, bashing others as OORP just because they have an unconventional RP is not cool. Trust me, I know what it's like to have a unique RP assaulted (read: Wesley Richter's LWB Wrath [and before you complain about it, read it, or I'll just ignore your complaints as I'm sick of arguing with people that haven't read it]). You can have the best RP in the world and still be called OORP just because its not exactly as things are with the NPCs.
' Wrote:If you're lawful then you don't demand things of anyone other than those breaking the law. Law biding traders go on their merry way, unhindered. Only pirates make demands of law biding traders. Pirates are, in the essence of this role playing game, not lawful.
To the BAF, you're not law abiding if you trade with Kusari. Simple as. You see them stopping people in Leeds and the Taus (the regulars, not the Privateers) if the trader has obvious intent to trade with Kusari. They're "lawful" traders, no contraband, but they've been declared unlawful. Nobody raises a stink about that.
' Wrote:I don't care how "approved" they are by lawful BAF holding lawful IDs or by the admins, they're still nothing more than pirates allowed to use better ships than pirates are supposed to by the established role play of this game. They also set the precedent that those outside of a house military are allowed to use gunboats.
Again, Templar > Sabre? Not. Splitters > Krakens or Tizonas? Not. And there are people outside house militaries that can use gunboats... you talking about lawful gunboats? They don't set that precedent, as they are house military...
' Wrote:Which way will it be? Either Zoners can use house gunboats, just like these pirates do, or nobody but navy and police of any given house are able. You can't bend role play for one small group of players and continue to say no to others. There is no balance in that.
Zoners can use gunboats. Not Liberty Gunboats, though. Try the IMG gunboat. And yes, you can bend roleplay for one small group of people. Keepers? Hello? They were allowed to play as Nomads, just that one group of people. Life isn't fair, everything isn't balanced. When Rheinland and Liberty go to war, feel free to be a privateer between them then (minus the [LN] tag), it'll be completely kosher.
BAF with Pirate ID's ? - AdamantineFist - 12-05-2008
' Wrote:My whole point, if anyone cared to look for it, was not to whine but to point out one basic flaw in the logic of having BAF pirates. In this very thread they say they make demands from everyone, whether they're hauling cargo or not, whether they're holding Kusari IDs or not. That is basic and pure piracy.Eh... only in Kusari, mate. Only in the territory they are, you know, AT WAR WITH.
' Wrote:Ironically I was accused of OORP today because I held a Zoner ID (look it up, they're described as neutral on the WIKI) and flying a Liberty Gunboat.>.<
Mate, hate to spoil your fun, but Zoners don't automatically get everyone's gear for being neutral, 'specially not military hardware. A Zoner in a Lib GB is a no-go.
' Wrote:This whole BAF piracy thing is nothing more than OORP. Either you're lawful or you're not. If you're a pirate then you should be flying pirate ships, NOT lawful naval ships. It's nothing more than an excuse to have better ships than other pirates.Ummm.... soo... by that logic, Kusari and Bretonia should be chummy, right? Well, sorry to rain on your parade, but they aren't. There's lawful, and then there's lawful, know what I mean? Different people have different definitions of "lawful". One definition is "supporting the interests of the Bretonian government and people". Another one is "supporting the interests of the Kusarian government and people". Both will tell you that they are right, and it's the other side that's evil and eats babies and whatnot.
' Wrote:If you're lawful then you don't demand things of anyone other than those breaking the law. Law biding traders go on their merry way, unhindered. Only pirates make demands of law biding traders. Pirates are, in the essence of this role playing game, not lawful.Trading in Kusari is breaking Bretonian law. Ergo, the privateers will make you pay in a very literal sense.
' Wrote:I don't care how "approved" they are by lawful BAF holding lawful IDs or by the admins, they're still nothing more than pirates allowed to use better ships than pirates are supposed to by the established role play of this game. They also set the precedent that those outside of a house military are allowed to use gunboats.Uh... first off, if the admins approve them, it don't matter how much you disapprove of them. Second, "better ships"? Have you ever flown a Sabre, mate? Thirdly, they aren't really outside of the house military, but are more of a wing withing the BAF. This is why they get to use our GBs.
Which way will it be? Either Zoners can use house gunboats, just like these pirates do, or nobody but navy and police of any given house are able. You can't bend role play for one small group of players and continue to say no to others. There is no balance in that.
EDIT: Well, seems Zapp got there a bit faster'n me. Oh well, I'll leave this in for emphasis. Oh, and you have to be FRIENDS with someone to get their GB. Neutral doesn't cut it.
BAF with Pirate ID's ? - Drake - 12-05-2008
Note that in the new IDs, the Bretonian Privateer ID is the only one of the House 'special forces' IDs which allows pirating... The other three just allow you to order traders belonging to enemy Houses to drop their cargo and leave their ZoI space, and can destroy them if they fail to comply. Lawful privateering is remaining uniquely Bretonian.
BAF with Pirate ID's ? - Unseelie - 12-05-2008
' Wrote:Note that in the new IDs, the Bretonian Privateer ID is the only one of the House 'special forces' IDs which allows pirating... The other three just allow you to order traders belonging to enemy Houses to drop their cargo and leave their ZoI space, and can destroy them if they fail to comply. Lawful privateering is remaining uniquely Bretonian.Sure, sure, but if a Kusari group really wanted to do it, they could put in a special RP request, and I'm sure they'd get through, if they weren't horrible or distrustworthy..
BAF with Pirate ID's ? - Drake - 12-05-2008
' Wrote:Sure, sure, but if a Kusari group really wanted to do it, they could put in a special RP request, and I'm sure they'd get through, if they weren't horrible or distrustworthy..
Yeah, though the Hogosha and AFA folks are already privateering a bit.
Other day I saw KNF and Hogosha NPCs fighting. Shouldn't that be fixed?
BAF with Pirate ID's ? - bluntpencil2001 - 12-05-2008
' Wrote:Yeah, though the Hogosha and AFA folks are already privateering a bit.
Other day I saw KNF and Hogosha NPCs fighting. Shouldn't that be fixed?
They don't automatically fight, sort of like how you see other House sometimes fighting Junkers.
And, on the topic at hand, literacy is a life skill.
BAF with Pirate ID's ? - Varyag - 12-06-2008
I don't disagree with the whole Privateer RP, however, I do disagree with them attacking friendlies just for trading in Kusari. If ships have a Liberty Corporate tag, you should not be assulting those ships. That is about the same as Americans attacking French traders durring the revolutionary war. I would watch carefully who you attack when a military other then Kusari could view an attack on their citizens poorly and limit support or maybe enable a different force to handle piracy on their people. Other then that, cool RP.
BAF with Pirate ID's ? - Turkish - 12-06-2008
That makes absolutely no sense Varyag.
You're asking a military power which has embargoed another nation which it is at war with to simply ignore its citizens funding the enemy cause? That would more than likely have been treated as treason during the Revolutionary War.