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+--- Thread: Why do zoners have cap ships? (/showthread.php?tid=99915)
RE: Why do zoners have cap ships? - Ash - 06-06-2013
For the past ten or so posts valid purposes have been raised but in reality I think we're missing a pretty important point.
Take the zoner faction today:
They've somewhat evolved from a nomadic people because the density in civilian population of their space has increased, although they've maintained the sparsity of their occupied territories. It's what can only be described as the beginnings of an empire. With any empire in history the key to stability has been maintaining the loyalty of distant territories, a problem that has been treated with measures of military garrisoning all throughout history. Their neutrality does raise questions as to why they would need a strong military, but then zoners have more of a need of possessing a fleet capable of intimidating a restless civilian population.
Neutrality can also be a reason in itself to possess so much fire power. Remember pirates, terrorists and revolutionaries are frequent visitors to their freeports, what's to stop them from taking over if there isn't a large enough risk to discourage them.
The zoners are staying ahead of the curb by having such a large military, I think they are pre-empting the future possibilities of revolt or hostile takeover which is even more important given the regions that they reside in.
RE: Why do zoners have cap ships? - t0l - 06-06-2013
Serious flood thread.
Woooow.
RE: Why do zoners have cap ships? - Lythrilux - 06-06-2013
Ikr :/
RE: Why do zoners have cap ships? - Thyrzul - 06-06-2013
(06-06-2013, 02:41 PM)uni Wrote: I think that you guys think that the zoners dont have enemys and have nothing to do but if you read the history of the zoners carful you see that they have enemies and have a role in sirius like
exploring and trading to the Edge worlds ( following the wiki it says: These systems are a home to many of the most powerful factions and entities in Sirius, making them a dangerous place to travel through for freelancers and core world travellers. ( http://www.discoverygc.com/wiki/Edge_Worlds )
they have war with the nomads and the wilde that are located in the systems where they trade through
Two enemies the Order and the Core can take care of and are currently doing so, could you please state more enemies they can't have good relations with by pure diplomacy and nobody can defend them against those?
(06-06-2013, 02:41 PM)uni Wrote: they are also the ally of the order and GMG so they are allowed to help them in their fightWrong. They can't initiate attack on anyone.
(06-06-2013, 02:41 PM)uni Wrote: and if you read the last sentence of the history there stand
It seems that Sirius is subjected to strong emotions that today's Zoners cannot ignore, but they are well prepared to face new challenges.
so in the furture they could have war with factions maybe gallia......
if these things not happen or the factions do other things ingame is something else but not a reason to change their fleet
so they had to and still have to fight for their neutral status and if that change they need that ships
They never fought for neutral status, they earned it by other means. Something a few of the newer zoner factions fail to accomplish. However, in the future they may consider Gallia as a threat, but again, they will have valuable neighbors to counter that threat.
(06-06-2013, 02:41 PM)uni Wrote: http://www.discoverygc.com/wiki/Zoner
and probably you start asking these questions because the actions of the ZA/ OSI/ Phoenix so then you should judge them and not all zoners because there also zoners that dont act like them but do what zoners should do
ZA, OSI and Phoenix are zoner factions acting vastly differently than the other. Don't mix them, please.
(06-06-2013, 04:08 PM)Ash Wrote: For the past ten or so posts valid purposes have been raised but in reality I think we're missing a pretty important point.
Take the zoner faction today:
They've somewhat evolved from a nomadic people because the density in civilian population of their space has increased, although they've maintained the sparsity of their occupied territories. It's what can only be described as the beginnings of an empire.
Empires form around similar people at a similar location, and require organization. Zoners don't concentrate at one location, rather form smaller hubs across the edge worlds. It's just logistically impossible to form a central command, and they are even against any form of governments too to form an empire...
(06-06-2013, 04:08 PM)Ash Wrote: With any empire in history the key to stability has been maintaining the loyalty of distant territories, a problem that has been treated with measures of military garrisoning all throughout history.
You can't have "loyalty of distant territories" towards something non-existant. There is no central body to be loyal to.
(06-06-2013, 04:08 PM)Ash Wrote: Their neutrality does raise questions as to why they would need a strong military, but then zoners have more of a need of possessing a fleet capable of intimidating a restless civilian population.
Neutrality can also be a reason in itself to possess so much fire power.
Remember pirates, terrorists and revolutionaries are frequent visitors to their freeports, what's to stop them from taking over if there isn't a large enough risk to discourage them.
Zoners did not acquire their neutrality by guns, rather by diplomacy and usefulness. That is what new zoner factions with militaristic agenda tend not to care about and draw the community's attention upon themselves by actions due to this lack of care. And that each of them have to earn it first before claiming the perks of it.
(06-06-2013, 04:08 PM)Ash Wrote: The zoners are staying ahead of the curb by having such a large military, I think they are pre-empting the future possibilities of revolt or hostile takeover which is even more important given the regions that they reside in.
As long as Zoners remain valuable for their surroundings, there will be no need for their removal. Once they cease to exist as such, more to say, become a threat, that will trigger the hostilities against them.
And hell yes, serious thread in Flood, something you guys don't see everyday, hell yeah!
And hell yes, serious thread in Flood, something you guys don't see everyday, hell yeah!
RE: Why do zoners have cap ships? - Trail - 06-06-2013
(06-06-2013, 04:08 PM)Ash Wrote: For the past ten or so posts valid purposes have been raised but in reality I think we're missing a pretty important point.
Take the zoner faction today:
They've somewhat evolved from a nomadic people because the density in civilian population of their space has increased, although they've maintained the sparsity of their occupied territories. It's what can only be described as the beginnings of an empire. With any empire in history the key to stability has been maintaining the loyalty of distant territories, a problem that has been treated with measures of military garrisoning all throughout history. Their neutrality does raise questions as to why they would need a strong military, but then zoners have more of a need of possessing a fleet capable of intimidating a restless civilian population.
Neutrality can also be a reason in itself to possess so much fire power. Remember pirates, terrorists and revolutionaries are frequent visitors to their freeports, what's to stop them from taking over if there isn't a large enough risk to discourage them.
The zoners are staying ahead of the curb by having such a large military, I think they are pre-empting the future possibilities of revolt or hostile takeover which is even more important given the regions that they reside in.
this below is fitting to your scenario
(06-06-2013, 12:30 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote:(06-06-2013, 08:50 AM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: Hi, let me first apologize for me brothers behaviour , you wont see him in this account because it is my account. Now, to the issue: Zone lore is complicated and hard to grasp, but certain elements are clear, for one zoners dictate there own attitude, not all of them are bound to be friendly because values are different.
Not true. Zoner lore is simple. They are civilian settlers who for various reasons have left the authorative grasp of the house governments and scratch out a living in the border and edge worlds. Zoners are not nation builders. Zoners are not soldiers. Zoners are not pirates.
Every attempt to make Zoners into one of the above has led to a lot of crying. But most essentially, every attempt to make the Zoners into one of the above is essentially a cessation of playing Zoner. If you want to try and do that, fine, use a player ID. But don't claim to be a Zoner when you're not roleplaying anything anywhere near one.
As for the capship issue. Take away the Fearless and the Zoner Juggie, and those militant Zoner groups lose the ability to go toe to toe with actual powers in their regions. The Aquilion and Corvo are not suitable as frontline combat ships, but are good enough to RP a mobile freeport and/or research ship. Shrinking that cap line also solves some issues with their sale points. I will continue to push for this for future updates, since this Zonery stuff is going to continue to recur periodically until those ships are gone.
RE: Why do zoners have cap ships? - Lythrilux - 06-06-2013
A lol-tier jug would be great
RE: Why do zoners have cap ships? - Trogdor - 06-07-2013
Aet (and others here) seem to be trying to push Zoners back to their vanilla lore roots.
But the fact is that the Zoners (along with every other faction) have evolved since then. Hessians, Corsairs, Outcasts, BHG, Blood Dragons, Rogues, etc.. none of those factions had capships in vanilla FL, but Disco progressed the story and reshaped those factions to a level of sophistication where they were capable of building and operating capital ships.
Now you're saying you want to push Zoners back to their roots. Well, are you going to push everybody back to their roots, take caps away from everybody that didn't have them in Vanilla? At that point, you might as well just run vanilla FL on the server.
Or are you just going to single out the Zoners, because you don't like them? I don't see why the evolution of the Zoner faction is any less valid than the others I mentioned.
Wouldn't it make more sense to just accept that what the Zoners are now is different than how they started out, and adjust the current Zoner faction so that it makes sense for us to have these ships?
If that means dissolving Phoenix, the CSF and the ZA, and starting over with some new government, I'm all for it.
RE: Why do zoners have cap ships? - Huhuh - 06-07-2013
(06-07-2013, 01:39 AM)Trogdor Wrote: -snip-
You say things like "If you take away Zoner caps, you have to take away other factions' caps" as if that's not what a lot of people want.
It's a thin veil to hide to behind.
RE: Why do zoners have cap ships? - Trogdor - 06-07-2013
(06-07-2013, 01:44 AM)Crackpunch Wrote:(06-07-2013, 01:39 AM)Trogdor Wrote: -snip-
You say things like "If you take away Zoner caps, you have to take away other factions' caps" as if that's not what a lot of people want.
It's a thin veil to hide to behind.
If people didn't want them, people wouldn't be flying them.
And where would you stop with the plot regression? As I already mentioned, if you're going to take all of this stuff away, why not just revert to vanilla FL?
RE: Why do zoners have cap ships? - Huhuh - 06-07-2013
(06-07-2013, 01:58 AM)Trogdor Wrote: If people didn't want them, people wouldn't be flying them.
And where would you stop with the plot regression? As I already mentioned, if you're going to take all of this stuff away, why not just revert to vanilla FL?
It's not about halting plot progression, it's about realism (laughable I know).
If I had my way, all caps excluding house military would be SRP (or restricted in some other way, not requiring the same level of RP as a SRP). That would help balance cap to snub numbers to more believable amounts.
Considering freelancer was once a snub and freighter game, a lot of people loathe those craft in favor of big guns, which makes me wonder why they even played freelancer.