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+--- Thread: Hogosha in NY (/showthread.php?tid=10475)
Hogosha in NY - chopper - 07-23-2008
Hey, stop that. Hogosha are not lawfuls, but you can't kill a Hogosha because he's a Hogosha, that's all.
I mean, a Junker can, but LPI/LN/LSF can't, really, unless someone makes them to do it, like Interspace.
And that would require some serious RP background.
Junkers are not in Liberty what Hogosha is in Kusari. Not even close.
Hogosha fights against other pirates in Kusari, Junkers support them.
Hogosha helps KNF, Junkers don't help LSF/LPI/LN, unless you count picking up the junk as help.
So, no, I don't think Junkers could make Liberty lawfuls to attack Hogosha without reason.
Interspace? Yes, probably, but not Junkers.
And they are not lawfuls in Liberty, no one said that. Lawfuls are the ones who keep the peace in a certain territory.
But they are not unlawfuls as well, and you can't threat them like that.
For example, if you catch me with artifacts, you have no reason to kill another Hogosha who carries H-fuel or smtn.
Also, Liberty is a bit different then Kusari. Kusari can ban anyone, just like they did with BHG and Junkers. They are a closed society.
Liberty is an open society, which can't threat people like that.
It's an important difference.
I hope we can end this soon. :-)
Hogosha in NY - Stucuk - 07-24-2008
All police forces are corrupt. Junkers are tolderated because they are useful. It would also stand to reason that they would be able to bribe the law. Criminals in RL bribe the law to look the other way and to help them remove the competition so i don't see why FL would be any different. Hogosha pirate liberty corperation transports going through Kusari space, so i don't see why Liberty would go "Hey good job on pirating Liberty transports, carry on". They would most likley consider them criminals for there actions against Liberty corperations. Its always corperations who run the "world" so they would have alot of weight when it came to the law.
Hogosha in NY - worldstrider - 07-24-2008
' Wrote:It could be argued that the LSF know damn well that the Hogosha smuggle artifacts for the Corsairs, and since Artifacts are contraband in Liberty, it would be reasonable to assume that the LSF have made a point to mention this to the LPI Police board of directors and the Liberty Navy Admiralty. The Navy would adhere to it quite strictly, though the Hogosha could probably bribe the LPI to ignore them because the LPI are quite corrupt.
If the Hogosha are not carrying any contraband, then they would be viewed with deep suspicion but they should not be openly attacked if they are not doing anything wrong by Liberty house laws. However, if there was an Interspace Commerce faction, or an Interspace Commerce player, that IC player could RP contacting a Navy or LPI vessel and saying "I have orders from Interspace to request that you apprehend that foreign criminal immediately. Their organisation is responsible for criminal attacks on our vessels and stations and Interspace will not stand for it! We will protest at the highest levels of government if no action is taken and I will mention your name to the admiralty board if you fail to act, sir. IC is most displeased".
Now, if the Navy or LPI person contacted were in RP they might swallow and say "uhhh...yes sir. On it right away sir, must always ensure the wheels of Liberty's finest corporations are running smoothly. We'll deal with those law breaking criminals! No need to mention me to the admiralty, I always do my job properly! We'll have them ejected from Liberty in a jiffy"
If it were done like that, I would applaud it. But it would be nice to see it kept in RP like that.
In fact, I'd say the authorities would attempt to show restraint. they'd ask IC, "Which ships attacked you? We'll apprehend them."
What Liberty does to Kusari citizens is going to have political ramifications. They will have to show casue to avoid a political incident with Kusari.
Hogosha are not one house. You can no more punish all Hogosha for another's crime than you can punish all corporations if one breaks the law.
Hogosha in NY - Culebra - 07-24-2008
' Wrote:In fact, I'd say the authorities would attempt to show restraint. they'd ask IC, "Which ships attacked you? We'll apprehend them."
You think the liberty forces would show restraint? :laugh:
They blow up people everyday for not dropping cargo. I know how liberty is supposed to be, but in game its totaly different.
Hogosha in NY - chopper - 07-24-2008
Quote:. Hogosha pirate liberty corperation transports going through Kusari space, so i don't see why Liberty would go "Hey good job on pirating Liberty transports, carry on".
Actually, I don't do that. Did you ever see me pirating ANYONE in Kusari space?
No you didn't.
I leave that job for my friends from AFA.
Quote:Hogosha are not one house. You can no more punish all Hogosha for another's crime than you can punish all corporations if one breaks the law.
Exactly!
Hogosha in NY - worldstrider - 07-24-2008
How player factions play the police and how they should be played are two different things.
Liberty NPCs are not attacking Hogosha repped characters. Go by the infocard, "just another keiretsu".
In Kusari, Hogosha are an accepted part of society and treated just like everyone else--even in relation to business.
If Liberty says, "Drive off and attack Hogosha in Liberty", how do you think Kusari pride will respond?
The player factions might not understand that but an actual Liberty government would--and the navy and military would answer to the government.
Hogosha in NY - Culebra - 07-24-2008
We keep flopping back and forth between what the npcs do and what the players do. In one instance we say players should play like this and we point to the npcs. In another instance we say we are not machines and our RP should not be defined by npcs.
The trick is to find a balance that is not to oorp but doesnt hamstring your rp. And thus we have this debate and this thread.
Hogosha in NY - worldstrider - 07-24-2008
' Wrote:We keep flopping back and forth between what the npcs do and what the players do. In one instance we say players should play like this and we point to the npcs. In another instance we say we are not machines and our RP should not be defined by npcs.
The trick is to find a balance that is not to oorp but doesnt hamstring your rp. And thus we have this debate and this thread.
My point in bringing up the NPCs was simply to imply they are more aware of the government that would likely exist than the player lawfuls are.
Have you ever seen a free democratic society where martial law is imposed and decided by the military and police with no consultation from the government? We just don't have anyone really role playing a government so things run like that.
In truth, the police and navy would answer to the government and couldn't unilaterally "ban all foreign nationals" from another house because of some smuggling.
Imagine if the border patrol closed every entry point from Mexico to the US and refused to let an Mexican nationals cross the border--passports or no.
They would all lose their jobs and the Mexican government would be furious.
Police don't make those kind of decisions. Deciding to have a general order to drive off Kusari with Hogosha affiliation would be seen in Kusari as xenophobic and ethnically discriminatory.
So our role play out to realize "we" aren't "the government".
Hogosha in NY - Stucuk - 07-25-2008
Nope. The NPC's don't attack Hogosha for the simple reason that Hogosha's ZOI is inside Kusari space, so the NPC's were never programmed to have any feelings for them as they would never go inside liberty. NPC's cards only have Ally/Enemy factions which are found in there area, they don't have factions which arn't found in there space on them. So what the NPC's do to player Hogosha going into houses that Hogosha based on FL Lore don't enter is a mute point.
If the US stopped a terrorist organisation(I know Hogosha isn't a terrorist group, but its a common example from RL) from entering the US which had ties to a forren government then they would do there best to stop and detain anyone which has links to that terrorist organisation who entered the US. There wouldn't be any problems doing this and the forren government would be the one which is seen in bad light, not the government which is protecting its citizens.
Quote:Imagine if the border patrol closed every entry point from Mexico to the US and refused to let an Mexican nationals cross the border--passports or no.
This has nothing to do with Expelling EVERY Kusari citizen. Hogosha are a faction inside Kusari, they don't make up the whole Kusari.
Hogosha in NY - chopper - 07-25-2008
So.. What you are saying is.. Samura is also forbidden to enter Liberty, right?
I mean, LSF done their job and all.. Everyone in Liberty knows how corrupted and evil Samura is..
Why are they letting them in then?
LSF must know about Samura's attacks on foreign shipping convoys (trough FA) and they are banning Samura from Liberty.
Why stop there?
LSF surely knows about Bretonian ties with Outcasts and GC (again known criminal group from Kusari). So let's ban all Bretonians as well, just to make sure.
See the pattern? Now please re-think.
Politics is one thing, safety totally another.