' Wrote:That's the wrong question to ask. The correct question is : how does the denied/aggrieved/victimized person ever get his hands on sufficient evidence that he can submit to the Admins to prove that he is being denied a battleship for personal or non-roleplay related reasons?

Plain and simple, nobody ever will. The person being wronged will never have access to those PMs, those skype chats, or those screenshots where his application is denied for the wrong reasons. All he will ever see is the shallow mask of "roleplay" denying the application.

What actually happened is irrelevant to the practicalities of any appeal. The only thing that is relevant is the evidence that each side can submit about what happened.

And the fact is that no majority of Admins is ever going to over-rule a faction decision without evidence so conclusive that it cannot be denied or ignored, evidence that the wronged-party will never have and the Admins will never see.

But denials for personal reasons is simply a subset of a larger issue. What happens when a faction decides that within its concept of acceptable and reasonable roleplay all of the battleships that could exist already do, and therefore all future applications are denied? Or what happens if OPG wants a battleship and the Benitez and TBH say no? Or what happens when HF says no to a spyglass request, and I, as faction leader of the Lane Hackers, couldn't care less what they think and grant it? After empowering factions to make these decisions, don't be deceived into thinking that the Admins will then micromanage the criteria that every faction uses to make those decisions. We don't have the time, and we certainly will not have the willingness.

Or what about someone who wants to roleplay a renegade battleship, or a battleship with a commander who is rebellious to faction authority, or any sort of story that the faction finds unwelcome? Make no mistake, the factions will have such a wide latitude in determining what is reasonable, that there will effectively be no appeals. Otherwise, every single person who is turned down will make an appeal, and if you think Admin decision making is slow now for faction creations and special roleplay requests, just imagine how slow it will be for something like this. The vast majority of player requests we receive now barely get any attention (and those are relatively minor to this by comparison), and that isn't going to change in any positive way, especially not when the outcome involves stepping on the factions' toes to do it.

Appeals to the Admins is simply a tantalizing sop to lure in the unwary with a promise on a limit to power abuse. In practicality, it might as well not even exist. It will carry just as much weight as the contents of any complaint box in any bureaucratic office on planet Earth : zero. Doubt me? Take a look at the abuses that you personally know about around here, and then count the number of them that have resulted in negative Administrative consequences. The former outnumber the latter by a wide margin, or you aren't paying much attention.

I've seen from the inside the process of faction creation requests, special roleplay requests, and player appeals on a variety of issues. The concept of appeals here is a farce. I know it as a player. I know it as a faction leader. And I know it as an Admin. I oppose this proposal, but the chances of anyone winning my vote on appeal based on the necessary and objective standard of proof is practically non-existent. You might get my vote on some other basis, but it's unlikely to be on that one because I know how high the standard will be and I know that nobody will be able to meet it.

I can't help but be reminded of a series of famous lines that have come down from the 1930's. I'll paraphrase : "In Sirius, they came first for the liners, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a liner;
And then they came for the battleships, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a battleship;
And then they came for the destroyers, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a destroyer;
And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

But I guess this is the price you all get to pay to fix the problem.
Oh wait, what problem?
I almost forgot, nobody has even proven that there is a problem that this can fix, nor even remotely proven that it can fix it better than Admins taking badly behaving battleships away from their owners without restricting the freedoms of everyone else on the server.
Wow. Punish the guilty and let the innocent be free. What a concept.

Quote:0.0 Be excellent to one another. Consider the people around you. Keep fair play in mind. It's a game and nothing is gained, or lost, save the experience. Credits can be re-earned. Ammunition replenished. If you become infuriated step away. If you make a mistake apologize. If you wish to remain in system after you die, or after someone has moved away, simply ask.

Fair play, a level head and consideration for others.

Quote:1.1 Discovery Freelancer 24/7 RP (Discovery RP) is a ROLEPLAYING SERVER. Role playing is REQUIRED while playing here.

Quote:1.2 Server administrators will impose sanctions on players for violating server rules and for any actions that harm server gameplay.

Quote:3.3 Out-of-character (OOC) chat must not be used in system or local chat. OOC communication in group or private chat between players will cease if one player requests it. Admins are free to communicate with any player at any time.

Quote:5.2 All attacks must be the result of some form of role play. "Engaging" is not sufficient. An attack is any hostile action that drains shields to less than 50%. Being hit with a CD is not considered an attack. If a player is attacked he has a right to defend himself regardless of who is attacking.

Quote:6.10 Player reputation and conduct must match player actions. For instance a player may not dock on a base belonging to the persons whom they are attacking or being attacked by.

• You'd have to bring the list of goods required to build the battleship (SS/give items to the Admins.) and have the cash to even consider building it.
  
• This improves roleplay for Capital ship building, and would annoy the crap out of lolwuts because instead of trading, they'd have to find the goods required to build the capital ship.
  

' Wrote:Try talking to the offending ship. If all else fails, report them to the admins. Then the guilty are punished and everyone's happy, right?

Quote: well, then I wish I had a shotgun and an address.

' Wrote:There's a simple way to do this, just no ones bothering to look at it.

Evolved Ones RPG, and I believe Asgard RPG all had it where a Battleship was granted by the Admins.

• You'd have to bring the list of goods required to build the battleship (SS/give items to the Admins.) and have the cash to even consider building it.
  
• This improves roleplay for Capital ship building, and would annoy the crap out of lolwuts because instead of trading, they'd have to find the goods required to build the capital ship.
  

Of course, this idea will just get ignored because it's coming from me. *shrugs*

Edit: Of course this idea works for Gunboats and above.

' Wrote:Of course, half the disco population will quit the second that gets implemented.