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+--- Thread: Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer (/showthread.php?tid=39576)
Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer - Zelot - 05-08-2010
' Wrote:It's too small, and it's a problem.
No one has explained why it being small is a problem, especally when pretty much everyone in the thread thinks it's balanced. So yes, it may be small but wht is that a problem Akura?
Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer - tansytansey - 05-08-2010
Being small is the problem. Remember when the new Cruiser weapons were unveiled for 4.86, and all the people screamed they were too good when on the Kusari Destroyer? Then they got changed so they were alright on the Kusari Dessie, but then they were too weak on the Heavier Cruisers. The Dessie created an imbalancing problem. Currently, yes, the Kusari Destroyer could be considered balanced, but are all the Cruisers around it? I would say no, they're not. They feel like a rather useless medium between Gunboat and Battleship. Maybe not as useless as Battlecruisers, but I know anything a Cruiser can do I've been able to accomplish in my Gunboat just as effectively, if not more. Sure, I can't solo cruisers, but two Gunboats can take down any Cruiser, and three Gunboats can take down any Battleship. How many Cruisers does it take to take down a Battleship? Two, three? More?
Sure, maybe with the new hardpoints the Kusari Dessie will be more balanced and no longer hold back the rest of the Cruiser class, I believe that was the point of heavyght turret slots.
But can any one here tell me why the Kusari Destroyer needs to be the size of a Gunboat? Is there any reason for it at all?
Because it's Vanilla and because it's unique are not reasons, because Mjolnir has already proved we're in the business of editing Vanilla Ships for the good of balance, and proved that it is possible to edit a vanilla ship while still retaining the original 'feel' of the ship.
Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer - casero - 05-08-2010
I don't care if it's being re sized, if it's getting new hardpoints (Read as Heavy and Light hardpoints). It doesn't matter, create the idea that there is a problem, and everybody will start saying there is a problem.
This overpowered cruiser has been destroyed by 1 GB and 1 Bomber, another time it was destroyed by 1 GB and 1 Fighter, another time it was 2 GBs.
Yes, I have fought 5 bombers on it, and almost kill one of them. It doesn't mean anything.
It's people's skills what make the difference, perhaps we should remove some hardpoints from the Liberty Siege Cruiser, as I have beated 3 gunboats on it.
Or may be, we should reduce the energy from the Lib Gunboat, as I solo'd a Siege Cruiser with it.
Change it, it doesn't matter, we should start focusing in the next thing to whine about.
Remove bomber guns, make them carry no guns, just the snac as I still kill fighters with it.
Remove the SNAC from SHF, I killed a Benitez on a maffic having lost all my guns, and carrying 0 mines, I snac'd him twice.
The KNF dessie is not overpowered, I've gotten great fights with it, won some, lost some.
But for once, I'd vote for re size it, so you all cut with the whining about it.
Edit:
Akura, it's people's skills.
I've seen 1 siege cruiser solo'ing a RM BS. Pulse and LM.
I've seen the Solaris LN Dread beating more than 4 Gunboats at once.
Frankie owned me on his RM Crusiear against my LN Cruiser, should we re design the RM cruiser? Or may be he's better than me?
If this is a problem of unbalanced guns on the KNF cruiser (or unbalanced in the other crusiers because of the KNF one), they are changing that right now, the KNF dessie will only carry 1 Heavy hardpoint (if we are lucky) that means, or 1 LM or 1 BR, anyway, it looks great 2x, for me change it, but once it's bigger stop the whining because people can not solo KNF dessies with their gunboats, no gunboat should do that against any cruiser (except the cruiser pilot is really really new to that).
Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer - Luis - 05-08-2010
My opinion is to scale it up x2. It looks better. Though, why are we "discussing" so much about this. Is just scaling it and changing the hardpoints/hitbox and etc. Is not that hard.
Although - it looks wierd when you compare it to other cruisers.
"ZOMG - u callz that a Cruiser? LOL"
Yet again, it can destroy a Bret. Dessie easy. Thrust-Thrust, Mortar. Rinse and Repeat. Now, increasing the size will turn the tide of war. Bretonia Dessie have a better chance and accuracy in destroying it.
Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer - casero - 05-08-2010
' Wrote:My opinion is to scale it up x2. It looks better. Though, why are we "discussing" so much about this. Is just scaling it and changing the hardpoints/hitbox and etc. Is not that hard.
Although - it looks wierd when you compare it to other cruisers.
"ZOMG - u callz that a Cruiser? LOL"
Yet again, it can destroy a Bret. Dessie easy. Thrust-Thrust, Mortar. Rinse and Repeat. Now, increasing the size will turn the tide of war. Bretonia Dessie have a better chance and accuracy in destroying it.
By your argument, people shouldn't be killing fighters with a bomber, but it happens.
Skills mate, skills.
But again, re size it, it's time for people to look for another thing to whine about, the KNF dessie is old and boring matter of discussion.
Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer - Zeltak - 05-08-2010
When I used the word "You" Ashes, I meant basically everyone who's using the size argument as the balancing factor. I apologize if this sounded like I was referring to you personally, my English isn't the best.
Basically, that it requires a size increase because of it being unbalanced in comparison to other ships.
Now, people can't really just look at the size without as I said, looking at the other capabilities the vessel has.
Mjolnir mentioned that the Bretonian Destroyer wins 1 versus 1 against the KNF Dessie. Well, I'm not saying that I automatically believe him because he writes it but come on, do some testing.
Compare the firepower, armor, guns, powerplant, placement of guns, arc ranges, how many guns can fire forward and backward. Compare all these variables with the BD and BAF respective Destroyer/Cruiser.
Don't just look at the size and say its unbalanced. Now I don't say you personally state this Ashes, but others definitely are. And this whole poll is based on that whether or not you state it personally.
' Wrote:I've never said the ship is unbalanced. Moot point. I believe the Destroyer is balanced in it's current form, I've never flown it, only ever fought it twice. First time one opened fire on my Firefly, I got away. Second, killed one with my Orchid with the ]bd[ without much hassle.
It's is definitely NOT a moot point whether or not this re-size is based on balancing issues. Else it is for aesthetics purposes which dosen't mean jack-shi* if it leads to major changes in some parts the balance-system. (A 2-2.5x size increase is a major change.)
' Wrote:The Kusari destroyer in current form (very small but with limited arcs) is not halting any "progress" for the rest of the cruisers.
And the first statement you make in your original post claiming the KNF dessie is single-handedly holding back developments on the whole Cruiser ship-line, which clearly Mjolnir states isn't the case. Him being the head of the balance dev team, probably means he won't be officially lying to you.
--------
' Wrote:------------------------------------------------------------
1. The destroyer is balanced in current form
- Dies to 1 bomber and 1 fighter most of the time.
- Dies to Bretonian Destroyer 1vs1
- Can't hurt a BS alone
- Is impossible to defeat with 1 GB (just like any other cruiser with normal pilot)
2. It doesn't limit guns for any other cruiser (given 4.86 heavy slots)
Various other ships of small profile and good arcs set the limit instead (BHG Dessie, OC Dessie, Rheinland Cruiser)
=> There's no "need" to upscale it.
===============================================
Not addressed yet.
Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer - pipboy - 05-08-2010
' Wrote:Not addressed yet.As Ashes is really the only person I've noticed putting forth any logical evidence/arguments for changing it, I doubt it will be.
Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer - n00bl3t - 05-08-2010
' Wrote:Yet again, it can destroy a Bret. Dessie easy. Thrust-Thrust, Mortar. Rinse and Repeat. Now, increasing the size will turn the tide of war. Bretonia Dessie have a better chance and accuracy in destroying it.
What?
Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer - Friday - 05-08-2010
' Wrote:As Ashes is really the only person I've noticed putting forth any logical evidence/arguments for changing it, I doubt it will be.
Ashes arguments have merit, counter-arguments are coming from a position of self-interest - which I find to be lacking in merit.
And as for my own self-interest as Dragon Leader? I say resize the ship, and balance the ship as you will - we will still kill it, or be killed, according to our skill.
The primary argument is that the size of the ship is laughably small, the evidence speaks for itself, when comparing ship sizes.
Again, I challenge any developer to state that this ship would pass muster if it were a new submission...
Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer - Tenacity - 05-08-2010
' Wrote:No one has explained why it being small is a problem, especally when pretty much everyone in the thread thinks it's balanced. So yes, it may be small but wht is that a problem Akura?
It's a problem because it uses the same class of weaponry as ships ten times it's size. Those weapons cannot be made proper for the larger ships without being made too powerful on the kusari destroyer.
Even the second smallest cruiser-class ship in the mod is twice the size of the kusari destroyer, and has fewer weapon hardpoints with the same low power core. Something there just doesnt seem right to me.