Lore Discussion in regards to the Hogosha

[Dab]

Once again, and for the last time, GMG has nothing to do with this thread, and I will request a mod to clean this thread if people continue to derail it.

This is purely about the stance between Hogosha and Kishiro.

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[varoshanin]

Dab you want to make hogosha close to Kishiro and Kishiro is close to GMG... impossible
So hogosha just do what CAN do in Okinawa and that piracy ... and where i present KSP or KNF than not..
simple...
Everything here is about relationship Kishiro-GMG

EDIT:

@Igiss for 4.86

Kusari Corporations

Despite the fact that Kishiro now has a more influential lobby in the government, this corporation was also subject to huge financial losses due to decline in Liberty trade and detrimental government contracts on military ship building. Samura faces a much better financial situation, but it has become political opposition, a special kind of '€œgovernment within the government'€. While the groups of influence for Kishiro and Samura battle for benefits, loans, and government contracts on rebuilding the severely reduced Kusari Naval Forces, both kereitsu use methods of competition that can hardly be called honorable or legit; in some cases, the Farmers Alliance, Hogosha, and Golden Chrysanthemum attacks are specifically targeted against shipments of one corporation, while the convoys of the other are simply ignored and allowed to pass through.

so hogosha and AFA ARE on Samura side GC on Kishiro ... end of story no need more Dab

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[Yuki]

On request of the individual Kaze, who shall remain nameless, I'm adding my two cents here.

"Bad" is an entirely relative term.

I would expect that the Hogosha - like the Yakuza families of Japan, would simply adapt to the new political environment.

Adapt, survive.

So yeah. I base my vision of Hogosha on their RL counterparts - integrated into the society so thoroughly no political change can get rid of them. In fact even trying to do so would prove counter-productive. So, I can easily see the faction in charge - Kishiro - instead just putting up with them and putting them to good use.

This is exactly how i see the Hogosha nowadays. A while back, I've watches a documentary about the RL Yakuza, which was quite informative, and also gave me the epiphany of how the Hogosha should be.

They are similar to the police, but still far from it. Civilians pay the Yazuza for protection. This may sound like "Protection" nudge nudge wink wink, but the Yakuza actually DO give protection.

For example; A shopkeeper somewhere in Tokio, present day, has a few members of the Yakuza barge in on the first day that he's opening. They 'suggest' he pay them for his protection. He agrees.
An unspecific amount of time later, people start causing ruckus in his shop, and threaten his personell. He calls the Yakuza directly, and within several minutes, they are at the scene, 'dealing with' the people causing the ruckus, and afterwards, the shopkeeper is never bothered by them again. Shopkeeper is grateful, Yakuza are happy, GOVERNMENT is happy, since they didn't have to do it themselves.
This last part, is especially important and relative to this topic. This scenario was a small example of one of many things that the Yakuza does in Japan. The civilians are happy with them.

So yeah, I reckon the continuation of the Samura alliance would not make sense from the Hogosha perspective. They're adaptible buggers (IMO).

I don't fully agree with this part.
Even though the emperor is out of kusari, he might one day come back and once more claim the throne. If they abandon relations with the emperor and Samura, their safety is gravely impared IF the emperor does come back. THerefor, they wouldn't do that.

Because the Kusari government could be said to now care about what happens to Kishiro Technologies substantial investments in Okinawa.

The prospect of continued Hogosha attacks on GMG/Kishiro installations depends entirely on how far the Hogosha would be willing to push Kishiro, and how much Kishiro would use their influence in government to act against the Hogosha.

In terms of the lore concerning Samura/GMG hostility - that was always covert. Neither side publicly blamed the other - it was all very polite, as is the Kusari way. GMG's 'bad situation' was being placed under an onerous tax burden by Kusari, as well as the whittling down of KSP patrols on the Honshu border.

Besides - the lore indicates that a most of the Hogosha who infiltrated the government are now in jail. So unless they are planning on running the organisation from their cells - we can expect to see fresh leadership, and possibly a fresh approach.

Completely true. The latter already happened. I became the leader of the Black Dragon Society roughly two months (or 2 and a half, ish) ago. Ever since, i've been requesting of the members (more like demanding) they stop all piracy, and greatly shift their focus to the transportation of artifacts, like the RP says. We almost completely withdrew from Okinawa, and only came there when escorting someone. Also, we have not attacked Kishiro, but we tried forging an alliance, as someone suggested earlier in this topic.
Even several infocards suggest that we've been working together. Take Suzuka station for example. This is its infocard:

Located next to the Golden Dragon Casino, Suzuka station serves as the primary refit station for racers who wish to test their fate against the deadly racetrack of Tottori. Various facilities and service robots have been purchased from Kishiro Technologies to provide racers with proper maintenance and performance parts for their vessels.

I think this speaks for itself.
I've been working out things after seeing this infocard. Instead of buying Quantum Multiplexors from Samura, like we did in 4.85, we now purchase Optronics (or optical chips, whatever they call em these days) from Kishiro. Even though no one knows where the cargo goes (well.. inRP that is;);)) it still generates income for Kishiro. I can't imagine they don't appreciate this.

Actually, the real issue is Kishiro, and GMG has absolutely nothing to do with this, and will continue to have nothing to do with these changes, regardless how much you attempt to bring them into it. I'm trying to make Hogosha's roleplay and lore conform to what the players think it should be, in regards to their relationship with Kishiro. That relationship directly affects their operations in Okinawa. If Hogosha aren't interested in remaining openly hostile to Kishiro, than they should not be openly attacking Isehara. As such, the lore in Oki might need adjusting.

Also Zelot, Hogosha do attack Kishiro in Okinawa. Hence this entire topic. By what you said, you seem to agree with me in that the Hogosha continuing to be openly hostile against Kishiro in Okinawa would be contrary to their new lore.
In regards to Slart's post I'd like to clarify that, though I said I could see Hogosha buddying up to Kishiro, I do feel it more likely that they try to play both sides of the fence;

[1:13:50 PM] Dabbykins: But I feel it is more likely
[1:13:53 PM | Edited 1:13:57 PM] Dabbykins: They try to play both sides of the fence

As I feel they wouldn't go away from Samura completely, especially considering their new operations in Nagano.
No, I want to know what the Hogosha players want Hogosha to be. Then I can adjust the lore to conform to that.

I've already discussed most subjects from the above quote, in the rest of this post. But i want to put some more emphasis on that the Hogosha does not attack Kishiro anymore.
We do indeed try to play on both sides of the fence which, like mentioned by Slartibartfast, would be in the Hogosha's best interest.




Earlyer today, i've sent AD a message regarding several nerfs on the Hogosha. Some points do attribute to this topic. I shall quote it here, on advice of Kaze, an individual who once again, shall not be named here:

So yes, the Hogosha. So basically, the faction is being outright killed in 4.86.
I will elaborate on this; I am absolutely fine with severely restricting the lolwut indy hogosha, because they were only pirating. They did not know anything about the hogosha, or their roleplay. This bothered me greatly. I'm glad to see this has been solved.
However, several issues are risking my faction, the black dragon society, of dying.

One of those issues, is the fighter limitations. The Black Dragon VHF now has a hitbox, that could practically fit 4 to 6 black dragons inside the hitbox of ONE. In addition, any kusari lawful gun will drop it's powercore to 9% instantly.
This includes the Kusari Lawful snac. The only snac being sold on Hogosha bases, is the unlawful one, which, inRP, is being created by the Blood Dragons. Their mortal enemy. This makes absolutely zero sense inRP.
[5:57:08 AM] Yuki: Thanks to this, any of our bombers' powercore is always at 90%, unless we mount one of the snacs from 4.85.

What also greatly limits us, is the cargo limit, which has been lowered not once, but twice. The first limitation, i had no objection to, since it allowed us to fly a Renzu Liner. Therefor, some of the people in the BDS bought one. Since update 3 however, we would technically have to sell it. This is a problem.
[5:59:14 AM] Yuki: In addition. The Hogosha are supposed to be a Militia faction. Meaning they can act as lawful authority in specific locations.For example, the Kanto field.
Because of the new ID, we can not even demand contraband anymore, even though that would make sense. Even if the demanding contraband would only be possible in specific locations (e.g. a certain distance from tradelanes).

I hope with this, I have informed you with enough feedback, Dab.


EDIT:

Dab you want to make hogosha close to Kishiro and Kishiro is close to GMG... impossible
So hogosha just do what CAN do in Okinawa and that piracy ... and where i present KSP or KNF than not..
simple...
Everything here is about relationship Kishiro-GMG

EDIT:

@Igiss for 4.86
so hogosha and AFA ARE on Samura side GC on Kishiro ... end of story no need more Dab

You mean, just like how the GC and BD are on kishiro's side, but the outcasts are not on kishiro NOR on BD's side? I see. Your argument is invalid, since this is not the only example.

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[9:29:51 PM] SERG: man's beauty doesnt counted

[Xenosaga]

I think they should be turned to regular Kusari Pirates, since GC and BD are largely political. By removing Samura from the government, the Hogosha lost much power, control and money. That means, they have to resort to outright Piracy. Kishiro, GMG and Gaijin-vessels should be pirated indiscriminately, while they are much more lenient towards Samura. They would lose their Semi-lawful status, but in a Kishiro-government, they cannot gain much from that.

[farmerman]

I think nothing would change unless Okinawa is now considered part of Kusari. If not, it's just unsubstantiated rumors from beyond the realm of law, just like with whatever the GMG and Samura may be doing.

Most importantly, government does not change fast enough for it to be of any concern this version.

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Faction info links: Samura Heavy Industries : LWB : Watchers

[AeternusDoleo]

So, Hogosha NPCs stop shooting Kishiro NPCs? Piece of cake to get this implemented if it isn't already.

Turning Hogosha into a regular, full unlawful faction has it's own issues, it would mean repninja'ing the faction red against all Kus lawfuls. Something Hogosha players have been quite vocal against.

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Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.

Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.

[Samura Heavy Industries]

Nothing would change, there was no Samura/Hogosha alliance before the change of government and there will not be one now.
Hogosha have always done what is right by them and will continue to do so.
Before the change of government, the Hogosha would work for both Samura/Kishiro doing what ever gave them the most benefit.
Samura being the largest corp spent more money on the Hogosha to hire them for different tasks than Kishiro did, but Kishiro still used them.

Now I see Kishiro needing more of a hand from the Hogosha in certain areas and hence spending more money on them, this does not mean Samura will not continue to hire them, just that it is more equal.
Samura still represents the best situation for Hogosha as they will promise a return to the organisation prior power within Kusari.
But the Hogosha are crafty devils and will still continue to work for whom ever is willing to hand over the cash.

About Hogosha attacks on GMG, this is a non issue.
Hogosha is not able to pirate GMG ships in Kusari and as such, any piracy that happens against GMG would have to be considered GMG's problem as Kusari's hands are tied to what happens in the Sigmas unless Kusari were to annex said systems, something the GMG would not stand for.


Also Bindo, the embargo against GMG from Kusari was primarily because the GMG tried to annex a Kusari planet that was an important part of the Kusari food chain, not because the GMG attacked a couple of Samura transports.
This however is a complicated issue that can go on for quite a while, let's just say it was not for the attacks on a couple of Samura ships.

EDIT: damn it wrong account M.J.

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