My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff.

[bluntpencil2001]

I believe that one of the reasons for which people dislike the monolithic control certain factions exert is that their leaders, heads-of-state, et cetera got there by virtue of 'getting there first'.

With some decent RP to begin with, they can effectively position themselves as the leader of a whole nation, who is also invincible and irremovable (since other folk can't kill the character off), so that not only are they the nation's leader, but they are so permanently.

This is a large responsibility, which has thankfully not been abused... although the possibility is there for bad results.

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[chovynz]

No faction leader will stand in your way? but that is exactly what is happening with the factions "requiring" certain measures of new and indie players before they are "permitted" to play how they choose. In Nooblets defence, while he may be arguing he does have a point - if he doesnt not break rules, nor overly disrupt the enjoyment and experience of faction and/or other players why, as a Role playing independant who obeys server rules should he have to obey a faction in game? This is not an argument for anarchy - rather one of equality of rule (RP and server) abiding individuals to enjoy the game without being told how they have to enjoy it by a faction.

Laowai, you are one of the few Indy supporters that I actually respect. Why?
Because I have seen you Role play. In my eyes you have earned whatever
you want to do, because you know how to role play, within the ideas and
ideologies of the NPC factions that you are in.

But one of the problems with what you are saying here (and I agree with most
of your posts by the way) is that certain independent Captial ship owners who
have no sense of Roleplay, are ruining other peoples Role play gamestyle, by
imposing their PVP cap ship thinking on player faction members.

I'll take two examples.
1) Lots of people in the LSF or SA or Navy player factions at the moment are
crying "foul" at the Outcast Capital ship being abused. The faction policies are
that they can fly fighters. They have no chance against OC caps - which camp
in NY and liberty - which by Role play...they shouldn't.

2) The Liberty Rogues CANNOT operate in liberty because of the independent
LSF/LN/SA who do not know how to Roleplay in those military factions. The
amount of Military Cap ships are ridiculous. They are absolutely forcing THEIR
pvp cap ship thinking on the LR.

As we can see from these two examples, it affects everyone. It affects traders,
who complain they arent getting pirated, or complain when they do get pirated.
It affects the military factions because they cannot Role play in their fighters
properly when independent OC/LR/LH etc... abuse Capships...and vica versa.

I understand why you say unilateral faction leadership should not be
roleplayed, but that does leave a large gap in the role play directions and
capabilities. It also doesn't make sense in the chain of command. There is
no two LSF's and there is no two RMs. The computer certainly cannot play
the leadership, so someone from the Disco community must.

And then no matter by what process that leadership is chosen, there will
always be people who don't like it and give the finger to whoever is in charge.

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Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.

[Angelfire]

One day when I grow up I will not only be able to spell disambigous correctly, but I will also know what it means and not be insulted! hahahaha

Most unfortunately, faction leaders as well as Indies tend to misrepresent the principle from time to time... Admin intervention is the only convincing resolution in those cases and us arguing over the extremist transgressions is a pure waste of time.


After reading Laowai's brilliant sentiments, I must conceed that my theory holds no water here. We simply do not have a strong enough Admin presence to protect the underdogs. When it comes to the faction leaders having total power, this is a non-no. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

And even if there was a stronger presence, Hyoong Sung has put it perfectly:

'I understand why you say unilateral faction leadership should not be
roleplayed, but that does leave a large gap in the role play directions and
capabilities. It also doesn't make sense in the chain of command. There is
no two LSF's and there is no two RMs. The computer certainly cannot play
the leadership, so someone from the Disco community must.

And then no matter by what process that leadership is chosen, there will
always be people who don't like it and give the finger to whoever is in charge.'


@ Nooblet + Shiego.

If I could sum up that entire shpiel of mine in one sentence:

Why bother complicating something already complicated with unnecessary extra complications when the complication you are proposing breeds more complication than the experience is actually worth!

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The Chronicles of Angelfire

[n00bl3t]

One day when I grow up I will not only be able to spell disambigous correctly, but I will also know what it means and not be insulted! hahahaha

Most unfortunately, faction leaders as well as Indies tend to misrepresent the principle from time to time... Admin intervention is the only convincing resolution in those cases and us arguing over the extremist transgressions is a pure waste of time.
After reading Laowai's brilliant sentiments, I must conceed that my theory holds no water here. We simply do not have a strong enough Admin presence to protect the underdogs. When it comes to the faction leaders having total power, this is a non-no. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

And even if there was a stronger presence, Hyoong Sung has put it perfectly:

'I understand why you say unilateral faction leadership should not be
roleplayed, but that does leave a large gap in the role play directions and
capabilities. It also doesn't make sense in the chain of command. There is
no two LSF's and there is no two RMs. The computer certainly cannot play
the leadership, so someone from the Disco community must.

And then no matter by what process that leadership is chosen, there will
always be people who don't like it and give the finger to whoever is in charge.'
@ Nooblet + Shiego.

If I could sum up that entire shpiel of mine in one sentence:

Why bother complicating something already complicated with unnecessary extra complications when the complication you are proposing breeds more complication than the experience is actually worth!

Understood.

---

Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[worldstrider]

Laowai, you are one of the few Indy supporters that I actually respect. Why?
Because I have seen you Role play. In my eyes you have earned whatever
you want to do, because you know how to role play, within the ideas and
ideologies of the NPC factions that you are in.

But one of the problems with what you are saying here (and I agree with most
of your posts by the way) is that certain independent Captial ship owners who
have no sense of Roleplay, are ruining other peoples Role play gamestyle, by
imposing their PVP cap ship thinking on player faction members.

I'll take two examples.
1) Lots of people in the LSF or SA or Navy player factions at the moment are
crying "foul" at the Outcast Capital ship being abused. The faction policies are
that they can fly fighters. They have no chance against OC caps - which camp
in NY and liberty - which by Role play...they shouldn't.

2) The Liberty Rogues CANNOT operate in liberty because of the independent
LSF/LN/SA who do not know how to Roleplay in those military factions. The
amount of Military Cap ships are ridiculous. They are absolutely forcing THEIR
pvp cap ship thinking on the LR.

As we can see from these two examples, it affects everyone. It affects traders,
who complain they arent getting pirated, or complain when they do get pirated.
It affects the military factions because they cannot Role play in their fighters
properly when independent OC/LR/LH etc... abuse Capships...and vica versa.

I understand why you say unilateral faction leadership should not be
roleplayed, but that does leave a large gap in the role play directions and
capabilities. It also doesn't make sense in the chain of command. There is
no two LSF's and there is no two RMs. The computer certainly cannot play
the leadership, so someone from the Disco community must.

And then no matter by what process that leadership is chosen, there will
always be people who don't like it and give the finger to whoever is in charge.

That was really well said (and an excellent pont about the Liberty Rogues).

What you said here is the truth Hyung--no matter which side you lean towards--the way it is now IS affecting rp--adversely--and I would just like to see the CHANCE for more balance.

My unofficial Junker motto has always been: "We don't run this place--we just don't want you to either."

I believe that one of the reasons for which people dislike the monolithic control certain factions exert is that their leaders, heads-of-state, et cetera got there by virtue of 'getting there first'.

With some decent RP to begin with, they can effectively position themselves as the leader of a whole nation, who is also invincible and irremovable (since other folk can't kill the character off), so that not only are they the nation's leader, but they are so permanently.

This is a large responsibility, which has thankfully not been abused... although the possibility is there for bad results.

Great point (I actually think this thread has some of the best summations on this issue ever seen here). The problem is recent trends make it almost almost sound like a promise that it will be abused if people don't "tow the line".

The other thing here is, should any faction be in a position to be in permanent control? Unless they are integrated with the admins like the Keepers, I don't think so.

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[kingvaillant]

It is nice to see that the last posts are getting real closer to the issue.

RP is the key. When there is no RP, there is PvP Whorage,,,or chat spammage...

The numbers of caps in Liberty Or Gamma is astronimous. All fights are unbalanced. We have A big load of OC dest and Co GB coming to Liberty to Capwhore Us to death. Same with lawfuls caps, They tend to be in a lot of cases "Overkillers". Things is, These capitals ships players may do some RP in chat, and you say to yourself when reading:"Ahhh not bad an indie RPing, nice". Although, When you see it joining a Fighters vs. Figthers fight, Where the enemy is already outnumbered, THEN you notice that the Cap pilots is an ass.

Most indies know how to RP, yes, But ALOT of them don't use their ship wisely, a lot of them use their said ship to win against everything they come accross.

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On an other note:

And even if there was a stronger presence, Hyoong Sung has put it perfectly:

'I understand why you say unilateral faction leadership should not be
roleplayed, but that does leave a large gap in the role play directions and capabilities. It also doesn't make sense in the chain of command. There is no two LSF's and there is no two RMs. The computer certainly cannot play the leadership, so someone from the Disco community must.

And then no matter by what process that leadership is chosen, there will
always be people who don't like it and give the finger to whoever is in charge.'

When a factions ask to be created, it goes in the faction creation forum and discuss it. In these discussion, people agree or disagree with the proposed faction and LEADERSHIP. This is where they are somehow "Elected" Already. To exist, a faction and its leaders need Both Admins and Community Approval.

But, The problem is that, you have some newcomers coming and denying the Authority in place, Because they weren't there when those were voted in. What do I say? It is THEIR problem. First come, First serve. So what ever the guys is voted or not, whenever it has happened, those coming after the faction and its leadership has beeen put in place will still complain about it. Thus, Making election things, totaly useless.

----

Tada!

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Director of the Liberty Security Force: Fidelity, Bravery and Integrity

The Amundsen Zone-21 Restrictions

[ScornStar]

It is nice to see that the last posts are getting real closer to the issue.

RP is the key. When there is no RP, there is PvP Whorage,,,or chat spammage...

The numbers of caps in Liberty Or Gamma is astronimous. All fights are unbalanced. We have A big load of OC dest and Co GB coming to Liberty to Capwhore Us to death. Same with lawfuls caps, They tend to be in a lot of cases "Overkillers". Things is, These capitals ships players may do some RP in chat, and you say to yourself when reading:"Ahhh not bad an indie RPing, nice". Although, When you see it joining a Fighters vs. Figthers fight, Where the enemy is already outnumbered, THEN you notice that the Cap pilots is an ass.

Most indies know how to RP, yes, But ALOT of them don't use their ship wisely, a lot of them use their said ship to win against everything they come accross.

---

On an other note:
When a factions ask to be created, it goes in the faction creation forum and discuss it. In these discussion, people agree or disagree with the proposed faction and LEADERSHIP. This is where they are somehow "Elected" Already. To exist, a faction and its leaders need Both Admins and Community Approval.

But, The problem is that, you have some newcomers coming and denying the Authority in place, Because they weren't there when those were voted in. What do I say? It is THEIR problem. First come, First serve. So what ever the guys is voted or not, whenever it has happened, those coming after the faction and its leadership has beeen put in place will still complain about it. Thus, Making election things, totaly useless.

----

Tada!

I agree with you 90% here. The faction s dont have current relevent leadership because the system is "snowed under" and the process is VERY long. My faction has been on the table for 5 months now. you would think in that time you could say "no" if in fact that is the answer.

My point is, the faction leaders are picked when theres time and they are not reviewed unless they REALLY anger an admin. Thus there is not an "old blood out and new blood in" effect. Thus we have stagnation and resentment from new players who have less options than before at a players command.

Now people who were inspired by Star Trek and Wars who like cap ship adventures and large battle of caps broadsideing or the equivelent(think opening scene of revenge of the Sith) have to constantly spar as players on the forums against people who engoy that Anime feel of Robotech and Gundam fast paced super pilots who own everything with lightening reflexes and a fighter.

Since niether import or any for that matter is accepted. This is further aggravated by Faction and Indie Zealots ready to Tow thier party line. Lets just keep this simple. If the admins didn't specificlly say it then its open for individual player interpetation. Some "realities" will conflict. They simplelly do not hasle each other.

This does not mean ( I'm a trader and I dont believe in you pirate! Go away!). It means that if I choose to play a trader then "I have to accept that there are pirates out there and, act accordingly."

It also means if,

Im Grand Marshal Bob and Im in charge of "Bobs Bad Boyz" for 100 RL years and then some new guy joins in and after playing for a week decides he's Grand Marshal Jim.

Now Bob says his men use white horses and occationally the blue for major encounters.

Jim has much fewer men and just as many enemies so his men use the Blue horse and reserve whites for fast responce.

Bob will have to recognize that, THAT fleet has a different mission statement and is the SAME rank, with just a different portion of resources to manage.

Now if Doug comes along and make Super Grand Marshal Doug then, if someone feels they have an idea must fashion a yin for the yang which can be allied or opposed.

In the end Newcomers deny authority because it looks like they have no chance to rise up with out rebelion.
New factions are takeing a very long time. More Admin.

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